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Originally Posted by Seeker
Amber Liv - My opinion only: if you can afford the Sauter, go for it, because you LIKE the way it sounds better than the Kawai.

The Kawai is a terrific instrument, but if it doesn't have the type of sound you like, it's not the one for you. kawai actions are extremely robust, and the hold up well in institutional settings under heavy use. The carbon fibre is, from what I've read and experienced, part of the reason why this is true. But... if the sound is not one you love, and you can afford to buy a piano that has a sound that you can love, BUY IT.

As to the future: the Sauter action is advertised as having a "double repetition action used in grand pianos. This is an extremely robust, wear-free construction that facilitates the touch of a grand piano. No compromises..."

IMO, that should suffice both you and your daughter until one of you is playing at a virtuoso level at which point you might want to consider a grand piano an improvement in the sound.

I would add this replacement grand would not be just "any" grand piano to sound better than your Sauter would. Not, it would have to be a GOOD one, and good ones are expensive.

Is 5 years too young to start?
Depends entirely on the child. My parents gave me piano lesson when I asked for them - repeatedly. I'm told that I really did nag them about it for weeks before they gave in.

Good luck to both of you.




Hi Andrew, thanks for your advice. I actually like the sound of the Kawai K600 as well. But the Sauter sounds warmer and softer which I really enjoy as well. And the craftsmanship of a high end German piano is really magnificent. But the Sauter is smaller and really expensive (around 20k). So I think I might just go with Kawai. smile

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Originally Posted by Hakki
AmberLiv:

If I were you and had the money for double the price of a Kawai 600, then I would forget about any upright and focus on a grand piano.

IMO, a grand will inspire your daughter and you much more than even the best upright will.
Kawai new GL models seem to have many new features. I would suggest you try a few before making a decision. Just pick a model about 5' 6" or more. You might even go with a GX.

And in the future you can trade it with a Shigeru Kawai.


Hi Hakki, when i do my research, I read about Shigeru Kawai. It is absolutely magnificent. Really appreciate the Japanese can put so much effort to build a fine detailed instrument. Now I am thinking I should start with a basic one, and if my daughter really enjoys it and good at it, I will get her a very nice grand in the future smile

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Originally Posted by Amber Liv
Originally Posted by Hakki
AmberLiv:

If I were you and had the money for double the price of a Kawai 600, then I would forget about any upright and focus on a grand piano.

IMO, a grand will inspire your daughter and you much more than even the best upright will.
Kawai new GL models seem to have many new features. I would suggest you try a few before making a decision. Just pick a model about 5' 6" or more. You might even go with a GX.

And in the future you can trade it with a Shigeru Kawai.


Hi Hakki, when i do my research, I read about Shigeru Kawai. It is absolutely magnificent. Really appreciate the Japanese can put so much effort to build a fine detailed instrument. Now I am thinking I should start with a basic one, and if my daughter really enjoys it and good at it, I will get her a very nice grand in the future smile


Amber - sounds like a good plan. Whichever piano you decide to buy now needs to sound and feel good enough that you and daughter can enjoy practice sessions. This is especially important because a lot of wrong notes and chords are played as we learn and on a poor sounding piano it is far worse. The Kawai 600 is a nice sounding upright and should be a great start to your and your daughter’s musical adventure, which will include more than a few wrong notes. grin


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It’s funny, but, as someone who was looking to buy his forever piano, I was seriously considering a Sauter, even up to the Masterclass level but I decided that, as a beginner, I needed something that would make the learning process more interesting. So, I’m looking at a Yamaha DYUS1 Disklavier/Enspire, a solenoid driven acoustic upright piano, 48”, that will allow me to record and play back showing pedal and key movement, has hammers and strings, and is a slight upgrade over tone of the Yamaha U1 which I am renting now.

With the Disklavier, I’ll be able to play piano rolls of the greats, and, actually, play any midi file, of which there are millions. I’ll be able to record one hand and practice against it, slowing down the tempo so as to force myself to play more slowly. I think the biggest crime committed by beginners is that of playing too fast .

Plus, Yamaha streams recordings to the Disklavier as well as video synced to the piano. They have an app that allows a person to video tape themselves at the piano and play back with keys and pedals moving.

There are two models, the DU1 Enspire, based on the stock U1, and the upgraded DYUS1, both 48” The price of the Sauter is probably more than the DU1, and less than the DYUS1.

I owned a Mark II Disklavier thirty years ago and it was great fun. I was all wrapped up in learning the violin then and did not play much. I’m ready to try again.

Note: I have no room for a grand and never will. I live in an apartment on New York.

Food for thought.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/03/20 09:54 AM.
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Amber - I definitely feel you've made a good choice. I'm a bit surprised that you perceive the sound of the K-600 as "bright." I've found that Kawai's tend to sound warmer than most other brands. That certainly is the case with my own K-500. I also wouldn't consider the K-600 to be a "basic" instrument. You'll be getting a lot of "bang for your buck." Regarding the carbon fiber action, Mason and Hamlin has been using carbon fiber in it's grands for over a decade now with excellent results.

https://www.pianobuyer.com/brand/mason-hamlin/

Cheers !!!!


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I am from Australia as well. I think you are talking to the salesmen at Australia Piano World as I think they are the only shop that carries both new Kawai and Sauter pianos here.

The Kawai K600 should not be bright. I own a Kawai piano as well and one of the reasons why I bought it was because of its warm and singing tone. I think the piano you saw could have been better set up and voiced and not at its peak performance level. This is something you could ask the store about.

The Sauter is a great piano and quite powerful even it is (only) 116cm tall.

Either pianos will be a fine choice. However like many here I don’t think beginners really need a Sauter unless they know they will play for the rest of their lives.

The Kawai piano will retain its value better (% wise), in the unlikely event that your daughter or you quit playing. Sauter is a brand that is not known outside of the piano community in Australia.

My heart will pick the Sauter but my brain will pick the Kawai.

And finally before spending so much money, I think you should go visit other stores and test out another high quality pianos by W Hoffmann, Bechstein, Boston, Yamaha.

Following this story with great interest.

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Originally Posted by Amber Liv
Originally Posted by dogperson
The Sauter is definitely a wonderful instrument, but I am curious whether any top tier piano of a lesser known brand would retain its value better than a Yamaha or Kawai. That would not be my gut feeling because of the large name recognition of the Kawai and Yamaha. I would be curious to see the opinions of dealers, as this principle does affect many other lesser-known fine pianos.

Regardless, there should be an expectation of depreciation for any piano, regardless of quality.


Yes, I think the Japanese pianos would be easier to sell as a second hand in the future, because they start with a cheaper price. If a person who wants to buy a second hand upright, I don't think he is willing to pay over 10k for it, unless it's a Steinway. lol

Any dealer will.know the true value of a Sauter piano ! This is especially so when you need to trade
up for a grand .A 12 year old Sauter would be worth a much better trade up than a 12 year old K600
I found this out quite recently ! Although many of the public may be taken by a Kawai, there will still
be those serious about music who would see the value of a true German piano !

Last edited by Lady Bird; 01/03/20 11:10 AM. Reason: Missing word
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Originally Posted by Hakki
AmberLiv:

If I were you and had the money for double the price of a Kawai 600, then I would forget about any upright and focus on a grand piano.

IMO, a grand will inspire your daughter and you much more than even the best upright will.
Kawai new GL models seem to have many new features. I would suggest you try a few before making a decision. Just pick a model about 5' 6" or more. You might even go with a GX.

And in the future you can trade it with a Shigeru Kawai.

Some of those GL Kawai grands do not even sound like Kawai anymore ! As bright as buttons !
Shigeru Kawai grands are in a total league of thier own !

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Amber Liv,

I think you will like the Kawai, and it will work for you for years as you and your daughter develop your playing skills.

I agree with willpianist that the K600 should not sound overly bright. Usually they start out a bit on the softer, mellower side, then brighten up as they are "played in". Are the other Kawai uprights at the shop equally bright? If so, it's worth asking them to do some voicing BEFORE buying.

Let us know what you decide.


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LarryK,
You are not really qualified to agree with Norbert about the value of
the double repetition system on Sauter pianos especially for a young
child so I would not just agree with everything you hear.
There are some very well qualified people here that know the value
of an enhanced repetition action !
That does not mean other uprights without this enhanced action
are not good or very good .
As far as I can find out only the 122 and 130 models of Sauter
have this action.They have become more or less become standard to
all those models now days .

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Either of these pianos would be more than good enough for your daughter (with due respect). My first piano was a straight-strung over damper from the early 1900s that had multiple cracks in the soundboard, a warped damper rest rail (the overdamper had the dampers rest on a wooden beam that the pedal lifted, and they usually cracked), and a terrible touch. To be honest, even with a Yamaha Clavinova, you'd be giving her a better start than many of us got. Even looking at the pianos available to most students in Soviet Russia, your daughter would be getting a better start than anyone who started learning piano there.

Most important is that you find your daughter a good teacher, who will be able to inspire her and keep her playing, at the same time as teaching her the correct way to get on and off the key, as well as teaching theory and notation.

Buy whichever piano you wish, because all of these choices are truly wonderful, and then make sure you have a good technician to look after the piano. It shouldn't need much more than tuning twice a year at this stage.

The upgrade you speak of is so far in the future at this stage, maybe 15 years off, and I don't really see that there's any point in worrying about it just now. Don't think of the piano as an investment that you'll get your money back on - unless the dealer has one of those 10 year buy back promises - but remember, don't ever buy a piano to save money!


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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
LarryK,
You are not really qualified to agree with Norbert about the value of
the double repetition system on Sauter pianos especially for a young
child so I would not just agree with everything you hear.
There are some very well qualified people here that know the value
of an enhanced repetition action !
That does not mean other uprights without this enhanced action
are not good or very good .
As far as I can find out only the 122 and 130 models of Sauter
have this action.They have become more or less become standard to
all those models now days .


Yes, I agree, some well qualified people on here know the value of the enhanced repetition action. It’s just hard to believe that any beginner would be considered to be well qualified, certainly I would not be considered as such. How many years of lessons must one take before they can be considered well qualified? Ten? Fifteen?

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Originally Posted by joe80

Most important is that you find your daughter a good teacher, who will be able to inspire her and keep her playing, at the same time as teaching her the correct way to get on and off the key, as well as teaching theory and notation.


This I believe with all my heart. My teacher is like gold to me, and is worth far more than any piano. She happens to be Russian and she is an inspiring teacher and a wonderful player.

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Amber Liv ,
I agree Sauter pianos are terribly expensive. Also the fact
that it is a 116 Sauter and the Kawai 600 is a taller instrument
may all work better for you. Both the K500 and the K600 are well
known and are very good pianos.I have only tried the K500 ,I do
not think we get the K600 in Canada ?
Forgive the rant ,some of the conclusions drawn about the true value
of Sauter pianos just seems very vague !!!
I have actually spoken to 2 dealers of European pianos and mid
range pianos and yes a Sauter may not be as famous as Bechstein
but they all know Sauter pianos as a high tier piano and the price
of those pianos.
However the musical value of these pianos is something no one
can deny ! I wish you and your daughter well with your musical
journey and your wonderfull new piano.


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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by joe80

Most important is that you find your daughter a good teacher, who will be able to inspire her and keep her playing, at the same time as teaching her the correct way to get on and off the key, as well as teaching theory and notation.


This I believe with all my heart. My teacher is like gold to me, and is worth far more than any piano. She happens to be Russian and she is an inspiring teacher and a wonderful player.

A good piano, be it Kawai, Yamaha, Sauter ,or some not so well known piano is essential for
any young piano student. Some may have done very well on a bad piano but why not buy a good
instrument. Many teachers will refuse to teach a child on a bad piano !
Why -- because most will never be able to improve or overcome the frustration of playing on a bad
instrument. It is just common sense ! A good teacher and a good piano!
No one here is suggesting a bad piano ???

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Larry
Sorry for the "qualified" comment ,You quoted Norbert who felt from
his own playing ,that there was no value in the double repetition action
which I disagree with.An enhanced repetition action is an important
part of many European pianos.
It implied you have the knowledge to agree with him !
Perhaps a misunderstanding on both our parts ?

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Larry
Sorry for the "qualified" comment ,You quoted Norbert who felt from
his own playing ,that there was no value in the double repetition action
which I disagree with.An enhanced repetition action is an important
part of many European pianos.
It implied you have the knowledge to agree with him !
Perhaps a misunderstanding on both our parts ?


No worries. I quoted Norbert, and also my friend, who has played for fifty years, the latter who expressed the opinion that, as a beginner, I had many other problems to worry about before worrying about the repetition rate.

If I ever get to the point where the repetition rate is a limiting factor, I’ll sell and buy another piano. Maybe by then I’ll convince my wife that my stellar playing demands a grand, or a high end Sauter.

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I think we're overworking here a bit in terms of what Amber wanted to achieve. Let's not forget that there's hardly ever a "best" choice for everybody. Here's a six year old child needing a good piano to learn music. All pianos mentioned will fulfill this task. Each choice may have its own particular advantage over another. Fact is that none of us have seen any of the models and most of us as players would perhaps make a different choice anyways. Too often these discussions seem to become a competition "who knows what" Or thinks so... You know what? After thousands of pianos sold I have hardly ever seen a direct relationship between instrument and player. Many kids with great pianos have given up. Others who could only afford a modest one have become great players and life long music lovers. Such is this business. Wishing Amber best of luck, not to worry: as they say "cream will always rise to the top"
Even if you're the only one who can see it.....
Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 01/03/20 06:31 PM.

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Originally Posted by Norbert
I think we're overworking here a bit in terms of what Amber wanted to achieve. Let's not forget that there's hardly ever a "best" choice for everybody. Here's a six year old child needing a good piano to learn music. All pianos mentioned will fulfill this task. Each choice may have its own particular advantage over another. Fact is that none of us have seen any of the models and most of us as players would perhaps make a different choice anyways. Too often these discussions seem to become a competition "who knows what" Or thinks so... You know what? After thousands of pianos sold I have hardly ever seen a direct relationship between instrument and player. Many kids with great pianos have given up. Others who could only afford a modest one have become great players and life long music lovers. Such is this business. Wishing Amber best of luck, not to worry: as they say "cream will always rise to the top"
Even if you're the only one who can see it.....
Norbert smile

What makes you think none of us have ever seen any of the models ? Some of us also go to
Europe for our holidays !
K600 may be elusive, but the K500 is not. There was a Ragazza in Paris! .,Just not sure if it
was 116 or 122 ? There were other Sauter models and there was Bechstein (Elegance, K8)
and Academy models . A Bechstein grand was also there.(as there is one at least downtown )


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Waking up and saw all these wonderful suggestions and advice from you who absolutely have the passion and heart for pianos! I will reply you guys one by one later! Thanks so much!

Sydney is hitting 45c degree today. Extremely hot! We are heading to the pool and cool ourselves down!

Talk to you guys later, enjoy your day! smile

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