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#2906430 10/30/19 01:12 PM
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BruceD Offline OP
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In the first Intermezzo of Brahms' Op. 117, the "A" section is marked: "Andante moderato," the "B" section is marked: "Più Adagio," and the return of the "A" section is marked: "Un poco più Andante." (How can you have more "Adagio" if you are coming from a section marked "Andante moderato?" But that is not my question!

My question (and also my teacher's) is what does Brahms mean by "Un poco più Andante" for the return of the "A" section - with emphasis on the più? If he wanted us to return to Tempo primo, would he not so have indicated? Does più Andante mean more "Andante" than the first section? Surely not more "Andante" than the "Adagio," that almost goes without saying.

If he is referring to the tempo of the "A" section, is "more Andante" a little slower than or a little faster than "Andante moderato"? On the other hand, since he uses più for both the "Adagio" and the return of the "A" section, maybe we should just ignore his use of the term.

What say you all? Inquiring minds want to know!

Regards,


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BruceD Offline OP
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Maybe the tempo indication in the second Intermezzo of Op. 117, answers my question.

It is marked: "Andante non troppo e con molto espressione" through to measure 72 where Brahms marks a tempo change with "Più Adagio." If we are going from "Andante" to "Adagio" it seems to me that the più can be ignored as being redundant; as I see it, there's no "più" about it; it's simply "Adagio."

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I would think in this case Piu means very adagio, ie slightly more slower than adagio. The piu andante for me means a little more andante ie slightly faster than first andante moderato. As you know andante means at a good pace but not too fast. Andante moderato being for me a not too fast andante, the piu wuld mean a little more andante than the first one.

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Originally Posted by Sidokar
I would think in this case Piu means very adagio, ie slightly more slower than adagio. The piu andante for me means a little more andante ie slightly faster than first andante moderato. As you know andante means at a good pace but not too fast. Andante moderato being for me a not too fast andante, the piu wuld mean a little more andante than the first one.


Hmm.... thanks for your input!

It makes more sense than what Brahms was suggesting to me!

“Mad Hatter: Would you like a little more tea?
Alice: Well, I haven't had any yet, so I can't very well take more."


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BruceD
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Originally Posted by Sidokar
I would think in this case Piu means very adagio, ie slightly more slower than adagio. The piu andante for me means a little more andante ie slightly faster than first andante moderato. As you know andante means at a good pace but not too fast. Andante moderato being for me a not too fast andante, the piu wuld mean a little more andante than the first one.


+1. Exactly.


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Another view: the 'literal translation' (well, according to Google Translate) of 'piu adagio' is 'more slowly' - Google doesn't have a translation of 'piu andante,' but I won't let that get in the way of my theory wink which is that perhaps it just means slow down a bit, then go back to andante. Seems a bit convoluted but, well, it is Brahms....


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Pete
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Slightly faster than Andante is called Andantino. So by saying Piu Andante Brahms meant more slowly than part A but still Andante.


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Più andante means more walking, which might be a little faster than moderate walking, or andante moderato.


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From the Harvard Dictionary by Willi Apel:

"Andante: Tempo mark indicating very moderate walking speed… To the present day there is no agreement among musicians as to whether andante belongs to the quick or the slow tempo. While this question as such would seem to be rather irrelevant, it becomes imrtant in the case of terms such as piu andante, meno andante, molto andante, andantino …. Piu andante and molto andante indicate a tempo quicker than the normal andante, while meno andante indicates a slower speed. Brahms was indoubtedly aware of this meaning of the term when, at the end of his andante from piano Sonata op 5 he wrote andante molto; the tempo of this closing is, of course, quicker than that of the preceding andante espressivo. However other composers use molto andante to mean a tempo still slower than andante.


Andantino… If used as a tempo mark, it means a slight modification of andante, whose direction is, unfortunately, a matter of divergent opinion. Beethoven was puzzled by the question of whether andantino was to be understood as meaning faster or slower than andante (see letter to George Thomson). Most modern musicians apparently use the term to indicate a tempo quicker than andante. "

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Having never come across these, out of curiosity I listened to them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nnjhHe15U

all I can say is "thank-you #BruceD" - they're quite magic. Beautifully soothing......


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BruceD Offline OP
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Originally Posted by petebfrance
Having never come across these, out of curiosity I listened to them here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4nnjhHe15U

all I can say is "thank-you #BruceD" - they're quite magic. Beautifully soothing......


The second in B-flat minor is one of my all-time favourite Brahms pieces. I'm glad that you heard them; Lupu's interpretation is wonderful, too.

Regards,


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It seems to me that Brahms considered Andante a slow tempo. I dunno, maybe he walked slowly most of the time.
In this case, I think he meant to return to the tempo primo Andante but a little slower.

I wish Brahms had used German instead of Italian. I'm sure he would have been clearer.


Peter
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currently working on Brahms op. 10 Ballades, f-minor sonata and 2nd concerto
Mendelssohn Songs Without Words and E minor Prelude and Fugue
whatever strikes my fancy today.

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