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cmb13 Offline OP
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I've noticed we have some new members posting recently. I think that's great. It will allow for fresh thoughts and ideas, new perspectives, allow some more experienced players to teach the newer ones, enhance the recitals, etc etc.

However, I am bothered that some threads turn into endless debates on the same old topics. How many times do we need to debate that one is best off learning with a teacher, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I believe that to be true, and do feel it is worth mentioning in the relevant threads. But there is a difference between mentioning / suggesting it and debating it for 50 posts per thread.

The same goes for the endless digital vs acoustic, upright vs grand, scale practice, etc. My thought is everyone should have their say and move on, without it turning into an overwhelming argument on new members' threads, akin parents arguing in front of their children.

By keeping the discourse civil and to the point, we can hopefully keep our appeal broad without alienating anyone.

Rant over.


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Originally Posted by cmb13
I've noticed we have some new members posting recently. I think that's great. It will allow for fresh thoughts and ideas, new perspectives, allow some more experienced players to teach the newer ones, enhance the recitals, etc etc.

However, I am bothered that some threads turn into endless debates on the same old topics. How many times do we need to debate that one is best off learning with a teacher, for instance. Don't get me wrong, I believe that to be true, and do feel it is worth mentioning in the relevant threads. But there is a difference between mentioning / suggesting it and debating it for 50 posts per thread.

The same goes for the endless digital vs acoustic, upright vs grand, scale practice, etc. My thought is everyone should have their say and move on, without it turning into an overwhelming argument on new members' threads, akin parents arguing in front of their children.

By keeping the discourse civil and to the point, we can hopefully keep our appeal broad without alienating anyone.

Rant over.

I agree. We drive new members away when we constantly harp on certain topics. For example, according to last years survey 42.7% of our ABF members are self-learners. This is almost half. So we belittle all those 42.7% of members if we jump down every new members throat and tell them immediately to "get a teacher." This is 'teacher-shaming'. 🤭

Perhaps what we need to do is to set up an ABF forum Wikia where we can relegate some of these debates into an FAQ type thing where we can present both sides of some of these eternal debates. Why one should consider an acoustic. Why a digital won't damage your technique. Why you should get a teacher. What to do if you can't get a teacher. etc etc. Then when one of the eternal debates starts, we can immediately reference the Wikia. If it turns out some view point was omitted there, then combatants can take the debate on the new view point to the Wikia to hash out.

Thoughts?


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Most - probably all new posters, in fact - never bother to search for "Why a teacher is always better" threads, of which there are thousands here in ABF.

So, they come in and post something like: "How can I get my fingers to avoid tying themselves up in knots when I'm trying to learn La Campanella from Synthesia?", adding they've just bought a Williams digital and fully intend to master Rach 3 within a week, after mastering La Campanella (with ABF's help of course wink ).

So, of course, experienced students with ten years of lessons under their belt have to wade in and gently remind the new poster that Rome wasn't destroyed in a day (though it was built in one), and La Campanella needs to start with Twinkle, Twinkle - with a teacher, of course.

Then someone else will come in and claim that he/she learnt said The Little Bell within a few weeks from said Synthesia (playing all the night notes in the right order, though not necessarily at the right speed with the right timing) and that you don't need a teacher just to learn a simple piece.

Then someone else will come in and claim that


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So what should a newcomer search for? Teachers? How to learn? Surely it is simpler just to deal with each query as they come. Sometimes the first question isn't the thing that is really troubling the person.


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cmb13 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
So what should a newcomer search for? Teachers? How to learn? Surely it is simpler just to deal with each query as they come. Sometimes the first question isn't the thing that is really troubling the person.

No....it’s okay to discuss and to recommend, just not to excess. Not to the point of alienation. A FAQ thread per topic can be cited for reference. Not a bad idea, TS.


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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
So what should a newcomer search for? Teachers? How to learn? Surely it is simpler just to deal with each query as they come. Sometimes the first question isn't the thing that is really troubling the person.

No....it’s okay to discuss and to recommend, just not to excess. Not to the point of alienation. A FAQ thread per topic can be cited for reference. Not a bad idea, TS.

Endless threads. Wonder who is responsible for that?


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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
So what should a newcomer search for? Teachers? How to learn? Surely it is simpler just to deal with each query as they come. Sometimes the first question isn't the thing that is really troubling the person.

No....it’s okay to discuss and to recommend, just not to excess. Not to the point of alienation. A FAQ thread per topic can be cited for reference. Not a bad idea, TS.

Endless threads. Wonder who is responsible for that?

Takes 2 to tango, Colin. wink

That said, the tangoing could be in an off-forum Wikia. smile


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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It's a difficult balance, tbh, but there are times when the whole thing becomes counter-productive. There's a lot of advice on the internet - lots of experts out there to advise (and sell you something) but I think people join forums to interact with other people. Heavens, one could just generate a Wiki with all the answers (if all the answers really are that cut and dried?), I guess, but it isn't the same as talking with other people, hearing (well reading) their points of view, questioning them perhaps for better understanding and so on, hearing of other experiences from people in similar situations to one's own.
But yes, there are times (probably too many) when things go wrong, and I think perhaps a bit of restraint instead of repeating a point of view (or argument, if you like) or being more specific in one's first response is called for occasionally. In the interests of avoiding that which we are discussing I shall try to refrain from restating this if my post gets shot down in flames wink
It isn't perfect but it's far better than listening to a recording / reading an article / watching a youtube (etc.) because there is possibility of feedback for better understanding, and of course the potential to get involved in a really useful community.


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Yes it takes 2 to tango.,, but it only takes 1 to refuse to dance 😊
The dances have not just been with new members dancing together.


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Yes it takes 2 to tango.,, but it only takes 1 to refuse to dance 😊
The dances have not just been with new members dancing together.

Which is why I bailed out of Jethro's wink thread last night. It would go on forever until mercifully shutdown, otherwise.

Anyways, this is a thread about bring civility and kindness back to forum discussions. smile


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Yes, I've been dealing with Jethro on a different thread, who's been relentlessly roasting/baiting me to the point that I am sadly ready to call it quits on this otherwise wonderful piano forum. You know, I was so looking forward to being an active, helpful contributing member of this fine forum, yet since I joined up I have been pestered every step of the way... by just one person who is doing their best to drive new members away. Quite upsetting indeed.

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Edit* I mistakenly (originally) lumped a second member into my above post, and just realized it was not two different people harassing me, but only the one. I have since corrected my mistake. My apologies.

Last edited by camperbc; 10/17/19 12:58 PM.
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cmb13 Offline OP
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Camper bc, I hope it turns around and you stay. But it’s not just one, it’s several. For that matter, any of us can be guilty of propagating these discussions.

Let’s keep user names out of this thread here on out and not cast blame, so as to avoid finger pointing,

My proposal is to make all attempts to keep the discussions on point, civil, and mindful of the OP’s intent or question. Healthy discussions yes, endless circles of repetitive insistence no.


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Originally Posted by camperbc
Yes, I've been dealing with Jethro on a different thread, who's been relentlessly roasting/baiting me to the point that I am sadly ready to call it quits on this otherwise wonderful piano forum. You know, I was so looking forward to being an active, helpful contributing member of this fine forum, yet since I joined up I have been pestered every step of the way... by just one person who is doing their best to drive new members away. Quite upsetting indeed.


I've honestly found that some groups are much more hostile than others on PW. ABF is pretty mellow (with the exception of an absurdly offensive joke the other day... but I guess we can't have everything). Some members here are very vocal, which can come across as confrontational when I don't think they mean to be. I hope you stay, Glen smile

General point:
Not everyone wants to debate everything. It's hard to read people online, so it's generally best to not continue to beat a dead horse after you've made your point. It's not one person's job to make everyone else "see the light". That's what drives people away.

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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Originally Posted by enw10


I've honestly found that some groups are much more hostile than others on PW. ABF is pretty mellow (with the exception of an absurdly offensive joke the other day... but I guess we can't have everything). Some members here are very vocal, which can come across as confrontational when I don't think they mean to be. I hope you stay, Glen smile

General point:
Not everyone wants to debate everything. It's hard to read people online, so it's generally best to not continue to beat a dead horse after you've made your point. It's not one person's job to make everyone else "see the light". That's what drives people away.
Agree. And that other thread you're referencing seemed like it was from somewhere else, not this planet wink.


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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by enw10
(with the exception of an absurdly offensive joke the other day... but I guess we can't have everything).
And that other thread you're referencing seemed like it was from somewhere else, not this planet wink.

Those sorts of things should be immediately reported so the mod can deal with it.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by enw10
(with the exception of an absurdly offensive joke the other day... but I guess we can't have everything).
And that other thread you're referencing seemed like it was from somewhere else, not this planet wink.

Those sorts of things should be immediately reported so the mod can deal with it.

I missed that one!
Also had another look at the N1X thread which I follow quite often - colour me confused but I didn't understand what the fuss was about.
Ah well, back to making dinner...….


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Are you trying to say a new german entry level sampled digital hybrid grand can match an aging japanese top of the line silent acoustic upright running pianoteq? crazy


Just kidding, I agree. I think this must be one of the best community's on the internet, full of very nice and helpful people, but i also notice threads get hijacked quite easily, often with a total change of the original subject. Maybe we can all try to prevent that a little bit, especially if the topic starter did not get his answer(s) yet. And let's not forget everyone is allowed to have an opinion, usually there is no best, right or wrong when it comes to things like art and music. Still, i do think these endless discussions can be interesting, as people make some good points here and there.

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Originally Posted by camperbc
Yes, I've been dealing with Jethro on a different thread, who's been relentlessly roasting/baiting me to the point that I am sadly ready to call it quits on this otherwise wonderful piano forum. You know, I was so looking forward to being an active, helpful contributing member of this fine forum, yet since I joined up I have been pestered every step of the way... by just one person who is doing their best to drive new members away. Quite upsetting indeed.


Wow, what a slow-motion train wreck over there on that other thread (I got curious so I searched and found it)! For a guy who isn't fighting (his words!), he sure writes a lot, and often. Sorry you had to get dragged into a war so quickly as a new member.

Reminds me of some car forums I've been on. I once answered a poll the wrong way and a guy wanted to go to war with me over it. A poll! I think that guy needed a different hobby; maybe stamp collecting.

I was going to comment on the teacher/no teacher issue. Sometimes I want to ask (jokingly of course) if perhaps the forum needs a widget to automatically make a new post suggesting each new member find a teacher upon making their first introductory post. Or perhaps a widget that automatically scolds someone if they use "reading" or "sight reading" the wrong way. Maybe that would keep things calmer if these two "endless debate" subjects get handled by automated widgets.

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