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The slow movement of a Mozart sonata can be interpreted without emotional restraint, in contrast to, say Chopin’s Polonaise in A that should be very rhythmic.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
The slow movement of a Mozart sonata can be interpreted without emotional restraint, in contrast to, say Chopin’s Polonaise in A that should be very rhythmic.


Possibly, but the Mozart is likely to sound kitschy if one takes it too far. There's still a certain reserve generally.

The Chopin Polonaise might be played more rhythmically, but it's a far more extreme idea for a far longer time than most Mozart. Even if you were to compare it to the dance near the end of the exposition of K. 330, which I think is a far more apt comparison, this very charged march is there for what? Half a minute maybe? Then were back to something a bit more "balanced" emotionally.

If we compare the slow section of the polonaise to a Mozart slow movement, also a more apt comparison in my opinion, you can bend time and dynamics within a far larger range in the Chopin which is far more harmonically unstable and more imitative of a soloist and still be convincing compared to Mozart where the piano is more often imitating a string quartet or an orchestra and time isn't as malleable and the harmonies generally not so extreme as to warrant or even allow the near constant changes one would likely want in the Chopin.

I know this is very subjective, but do you see my point?

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Beethoven, Chopin, many Looney Tunes cartoons with classical music and this movie.

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Quote

If we compare the slow section of the polonaise to a Mozart slow movement, also a more apt comparison in my opinion, you can bend time and dynamics within a far larger range in the Chopin which is far more harmonically unstable and more imitative of a soloist and still be convincing compared to Mozart where the piano is more often imitating a string quartet or an orchestra and time isn't as malleable and the harmonies generally not so extreme as to warrant or even allow the near constant changes one would likely want in the Chopin.

I know this is very subjective, but do you see my point?

Yes. I just have a different conception. I would compare some of the slow movements of Mozart sonatas to love songs in a Mozart opera. I think the slow movement of K545 in C just cries out for an emotional interpretation. On the other hand, the middle section of Chopin’s Polonaise in A is actually the only pure polonaise in the piece, with the doubled sixteenth notes leading in to the 2nd beat. (The pure polonaise also makes an appearance in the 3rd tonal statement of the main theme). It is customary to delay them slightly and then rush them to get back in time, as that is the customary polonaise folk rhythm. But other than that, and typical ritards at the end of thematic sections, I prefer it to be fairly rhythmic since it is the only true polonaise in a piece with that name. Certainly, I find the middle section of Mozart K545 more amenable to an emotional interpretation, but others as well.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
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If we compare the slow section of the polonaise to a Mozart slow movement, also a more apt comparison in my opinion, you can bend time and dynamics within a far larger range in the Chopin which is far more harmonically unstable and more imitative of a soloist and still be convincing compared to Mozart where the piano is more often imitating a string quartet or an orchestra and time isn't as malleable and the harmonies generally not so extreme as to warrant or even allow the near constant changes one would likely want in the Chopin.

I know this is very subjective, but do you see my point?

Yes. I just have a different conception. I would compare some of the slow movements of Mozart sonatas to love songs in a Mozart opera. I think the slow movement of K545 in C just cries out for an emotional interpretation. On the other hand, the middle section of Chopin’s Polonaise in A is actually the only pure polonaise in the piece, with the doubled sixteenth notes leading in to the 2nd beat. (The pure polonaise also makes an appearance in the 3rd tonal statement of the main theme). It is customary to delay them slightly and then rush them to get back in time, as that is the customary polonaise folk rhythm. But other than that, and typical ritards at the end of thematic sections, I prefer it to be fairly rhythmic since it is the only true polonaise in a piece with that name. Certainly, I find the middle section of Mozart K545 more amenable to an emotional interpretation, but others as well.


Oh, that is fascinating how differently we see them. You know, for all Mozart's opera writing and for even having teachers who really connected the two and encouraged me to, I've never really listened to Mozart's piano music and thought, "This is opera music on the piano." I admire you folks who do though. That's a fun way to see it.

Chopin I actually find to be the opera brought to the piano. Chopin's use of the Mazurkas in general I don't see as very legit. Kind of like the waltzes, I find them to be extreme hightened distortions of their actual forms. Mazurka's are these simple energetic dances, but not Chopin's. They're very filtered though his aesthetics.


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My father playing music to my mum, while still in the womb. And then to put me to sleep...

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Originally Posted by Nikolas
My father playing music to my mum, while still in the womb. And then to put me to sleep...



I did the same to my wife when she was expecting our son. I would play Luciano Pavarotti all the time at her stomach. After my son was born, if he started crying, I would put on a Pavarotti CD and he would stop crying. I always found that fascinating.



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In my younger days I had little exposure to Classical music besides the old Beethoven 9 Symphony LPs my father used to listen to. I got into listening to #5 and #9 especially because they have catchy tunes. Besides "Fur Elise" I was into listening to a few Pop tunes on radio but never thought I would get to play anything on piano. Being brought up in a non-musical family, everybody had music lessons but nobody was expected to play an instrument to an intermediate or advanced level. In my younger days, everybody in the family dreaded going to music lessons and nobody really enjoyed playing as a hobby.

My inspiration came during my high school years around 1985 (the Tri-centenary year of Bach & Handel). I was in music class playing violin and used Bach French Suite #3 for a class presentation. I enjoyed listening to the Sarabande and Minuet & Trio performed on harpsichord especially. A piano version of the Sarabande performed by Keith Jarrett just came out. It would take me more than a decade before I would learn these pieces.

In my younger days I considered myself a slow learner. I was good at memorizing facts in textbooks but I could not pick up piano playing and quit after having just 3 lessons. A few people in the family survived piano lessons for at least 3 years but I wasn't 1 of them. I used to listen to music on the radio very much. At some point my sister suggested that I should take a music appreciation class at the local conservatory. In this day and age I can get a lot of info on music including music theory, composers' profiles, etc. online. I don't need to go to class to listen to a teacher tell me how to enjoy listening to music. I eventually got myself a piano teacher and was practicing for at least an hour a day, 7 days a week that nobody in the family was expecting at my age.

The love of music is 1 thing, playing a piece at an intermediate level took a while.

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I was surrounded by all kind of music as a child as well, including classical. I think, turntable record player was the center of our home entertainment as we were growing up. We had large record collection with some records pre-war (circa 1930), so naturally we listened to a lot of aria's smile. My dad didn't take us to the theater to see ballet or opera until age 10 or so, but by that time I knew what to expect. In former Soviet Union there was a lot of classical music and ballet on tv too. So I guess music of Tchaikovsky is my first conscious musical memory. Cartoons were maybe little crude, but we danced to the music just the same:




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Originally Posted by initK
I was surrounded by all kind of music as a child as well, including classical. I think, turntable record player was the center of our home entertainment as we were growing up. We had large record collection with some records pre-war (circa 1930), so naturally we listened to a lot of aria's smile. My dad didn't take us to the theater to see ballet or opera until age 10 or so, but by that time I knew what to expect. In former Soviet Union there was a lot of classical music and ballet on tv too. So I guess music of Tchaikovsky is my first conscious musical memory. Cartoons were maybe little crude, but we danced to the music just the same:




I wonder if there was a big reaction away from classical in the 90's in Russia? My wife listened to classical on the radio all the time when she was growing up in Moscow, yet by the late 90's when I was working there, I found it difficult to find a classical radio station that was still on the air in Moscow. Perhaps people felt like they had been force fed classical by the State for too long and all the classical stations died at once like the dinosaurs... Classical radio station apocalypse.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Perhaps people felt like they had been force fed classical by the State for too long and all the classical stations died at once like the dinosaurs... Classical radio station apocalypse.

It's possible that some people did, but most likely radio stations just turned their eyes to the West and were mostly concerned with making some money for a change. 90's were crazy times. In early 90's I was still in college and was mostly excited to tune into FM stations to hear some Metallica or AC/DC smile
People of my generation mostly proud of Russian classical composers and their worldwide impact, but not big percentage truly love classical music or understand much about it. But this is the same for any country, I think.

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Originally Posted by initK
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Perhaps people felt like they had been force fed classical by the State for too long and all the classical stations died at once like the dinosaurs... Classical radio station apocalypse.

It's possible that some people did, but most likely radio stations just turned their eyes to the West and were mostly concerned with making some money for a change. 90's were crazy times. In early 90's I was still in college and was mostly excited to tune into FM stations to hear some Metallica or AC/DC smile
People of my generation mostly proud of Russian classical composers and their worldwide impact, but not big percentage truly love classical music or understand much about it. But this is the same for any country, I think.

In the UK, BBC Radio 3 (the BBC's classical station) survives only because it is funded by the TV licence. It is by far the most expensive radio station to run, because it broadcasts lots of live concerts (including all the Proms concerts) and supports several orchestras and 'contemporary classical' music. And it has by far the smallest audience of any nationwide radio station - but its audience (which includes me, of course wink ) is also the most highly educated and affluent, as well as the most loyal.

Classic FM, a commercial 'classical' radio station, came along in 1992 and has been successful, because it keeps broadcasting the same small range of audience favorites (Rach 2, Concierto de Aranjuez, Bruch's Violin Concerto, Nessun dorma etc) again and again, so it has gained an audience who like only tuneful (& soulful) classical music who would otherwise be listening to golden oldies from easy-listening pop stations. It seems there's very little crossover between Classic FM and Radio 3 listeners. I only tune in to Classic FM rarely - when driving and then only when Radio 3 is playing jazz that I can't stand. (Yes, jazz also has its own home in Radio 3). Like pop stations, dynamics are almost non-existent with Classic FM and it's only tolerable when driving, when it's acceptable to have ppp as loud as fff because of the ambient traffic and engine noise.

Listeners to pop radio stations often flit between several favourite stations depending on which presenter's style and music they like (and they follow the presenter if he defects to another station) but most of the programs in Radio 3 are not presenter-led, and the music (even if all on CD) is rarely chosen by the presenter. A live concert of 2 hours of non-stop Messiaen can hardly be so.......


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Originally Posted by Nikolas
My father playing music to my mum, while still in the womb. And then to put me to sleep...


My parents said they played Schubert's "Unfinished" Symphony often before I was born premature (about 5 weeks, which was concerning back then, a few years after Patrick Kennedy died). I was small and "fattened up" on apple juice.

I can't stand apple juice or "Unfinished" to this day. 🤣


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Originally Posted by initK
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Perhaps people felt like they had been force fed classical by the State for too long and all the classical stations died at once like the dinosaurs... Classical radio station apocalypse.

It's possible that some people did, but most likely radio stations just turned their eyes to the West and were mostly concerned with making some money for a change. 90's were crazy times. In early 90's I was still in college and was mostly excited to tune into FM stations to hear some Metallica or AC/DC smile
People of my generation mostly proud of Russian classical composers and their worldwide impact, but not big percentage truly love classical music or understand much about it. But this is the same for any country, I think.

We still have an apartment in Moscow but I haven't tried to listen to the radio when there in a long time. (We now have Internet, internet radio on phones, etc. Almost like there isn't a purpose for a terrestrial radio station any more.) However, it seems though the situation has improved for those who still listen to the real radio, with 4 classical music stations listed there.

That said, one thing that has always impressed me is the number of young people there that go to the opera. Whenever I go to the opera in Moscow, at least 10% of the audience appears to be under 30, with many under 20. Where else do you have so many young opera-goers? There are so many young opera goers that the entire hall is lit up by smartphone screens and text messages! wink shocked laugh


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by initK
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Perhaps people felt like they had been force fed classical by the State for too long and all the classical stations died at once like the dinosaurs... Classical radio station apocalypse.

It's possible that some people did, but most likely radio stations just turned their eyes to the West and were mostly concerned with making some money for a change. 90's were crazy times. In early 90's I was still in college and was mostly excited to tune into FM stations to hear some Metallica or AC/DC smile
People of my generation mostly proud of Russian classical composers and their worldwide impact, but not big percentage truly love classical music or understand much about it. But this is the same for any country, I think.

We still have an apartment in Moscow but I haven't tried to listen to the radio when there in a long time. (We now have Internet, internet radio on phones, etc. Almost like there isn't a purpose for a terrestrial radio station any more.) However, it seems though the situation has improved for those who still listen to the real radio, with 4 classical music stations listed there.

That said, one thing that has always impressed me is the number of young people there that go to the opera. Whenever I go to the opera in Moscow, at least 10% of the audience appears to be under 30, with many under 20. Where else do you have so many young opera-goers? There are so many young opera goers that the entire hall is lit up by smartphone screens and text messages! wink shocked laugh


Opera is fantastic!



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I've heard and read for some time that the younger audience likes opera. Having a local orchestra is the glue of an arts community, as it also plays for ballet, opera, and big churches. Orchestras bring in pianists to play concertos, who often also give recitals and master classes. I wish people appreciated and supported the "interconnectedness" more. For some reason, there are people who go to opera or ballet who wouldn't be caught dead at a symphony concert.

As for radio, talk radio format ruined classical daytime programming.


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Same as another reply for me: Pathetique, second movement, as played by Schroeder (Ingolf Dahl, in this case). This one, in fact:



That led me for years to pursue all things Beethoven. Though it I discovered the c# minor sonata, the d minor op 31 no 2, and then my true love of op 109, 110 and 111. I’m glossing over many wonderful hours of music to touch on the highlights of my much younger life, of course.

Eventually me continually talking about and playing recordings of these pieces inspired my lovely wife to become exasperated and buy me a cheap keyboard for my birthday and, well, here we are. smile

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Originally Posted by jandz
Same as another reply for me: Pathetique, second movement, as played by Schroeder (Ingolf Dahl, in this case). This one, in fact:



That led me for years to pursue all things Beethoven. Though it I discovered the c# minor sonata, the d minor op 31 no 2, and then my true love of op 109, 110 and 111. I’m glossing over many wonderful hours of music to touch on the highlights of my much younger life, of course.

Eventually me continually talking about and playing recordings of these pieces inspired my lovely wife to become exasperated and buy me a cheap keyboard for my birthday and, well, here we are. smile


Ah, love cartoons like that with classical music. I wonder if this is all connected in my mind because when mom would come home after night shift at the hospital on Sunday or Saturday morning, she would turn on some "long and calm" piano record, give us watercolors and paper and tell us to be quiet. wink

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I think my earliest love of music came from massive stone Anglican church I attended.
The organ ,the incredible choir ,a soprano.solo singing a Handel aria .
Then I heard on the radio the A major Piano Concerto K488 of Mozart.
I shall never forget my sister was with me and during the slow movement my sister started
to weep ! This was unbelievable, as my sister never even enjoyed classical music !
I was in a trance and could not forgot how we were affected by the music of someone
called Mozart !

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I grew up behind the Cotton Curtain, in the Deep South. There was no public classical music; radio was Top 40 or country, or Easy Listening. But most of all, music was in the churches and it was my luck to be the youngest member of a very excellent church choir. Our choir director had a degree in Architecture and also one from Conservatory. (I never knew you could ask things like,"What conservatory, what degree, and what was that like?")

But, I suppose there was no need to ask: he brought it home. Our modest SATB ensemble grazed upon the published anthem arrangements. Some of the composers' names were famous ones: Arthur Sullivan, J.S. Bach, Vaughn Williams; "The Shepherds' Farewell to the Holy Family,"... but Bill knew who the good ones were, among the unknown composers. We had the best rehearsal pianist and Sunday morning pianist, who later gave me piano lessons. No organ--- we were the organ. And on special occasions like Christmas and Easter, special performances were sometimes given of oratorios, with outside musicians giving us a real orchestra, and performers in costumes for the tableaux. "Hodie" by Vaughn Williams (I tracked the score down, all these years later), "The Redeemer," by Martin Shaw. (Not in the same year--- that was a workout.)

I also happen to have the hymnbook we used back then. The church changed to a different denomination, and the old books were getting worn. My mom bought one from them, and sent it to me. Interestingly, if you turn to the Index by Composer in one of these books, it is surprising what a substantial list of famous names have contributed hymns and other sacred works. Classical composers coming in the back door, some of the most delightful numbers are so old no attribution can be given; they have survived by their magic alone.

Jacqueline Kennedy's selections for music to be played on the walk to Arlington, and before that, in the Capitol rotunda as people paid their respects woke up something inside me. I remember the Bach, "Sheep May Safely Graze," "Ave Verum," "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring." Ah, so that's what this music is for. I wrote to her; nothing fancy, "I'm so sorry." What a surprise, some time later when I had forgotten all about it, a note, thanking me.

My mom bought all the record albums in the series brought out by, and sold at, the A&P grocery. It must have been quite a sweep of the field; there must have been 40 albums, all classical, no popular except where the music from the classics had been stolen (ok, "borrowed," ok, "if you're going to steal, steal from the best." Though a pianist herself, she preferred Beethoven and especially the symphonic works. I never heard a note of the piano sonatas until several multiples of my age at that time. Yet there was Bach, and Vivaldi ("Concerto in ?D minor for two violins and orchestra," what I wouldn't give to have that recording today.) And Dukas, and some Grieg.

Gosh, Alicia de Larrocha and John Browning must have been in their performing prime back then.

Hey, thanks for this topic. It's a little frightening to see how much I've forgotten, but still wonderful. BTW, my real introduction to the serious art music did not begin for many years , but I'm glad it's here now.


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