2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
60 members (Abdol, c++, Animisha, anotherscott, Bruce In Philly, Baltguy, Alex Hutor, AndyE, 10 invisible), 505 guests, and 565 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 124
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 124
I remembered this original question and yesterday thought of a clarification that might please you all .
Almost like a thought experiment imagine we begin tuning a piano from the highest note first . The basic need is to attain octaves on the piano that sound musical /pleasant /right. When you tune the note an lower than the top note it needs to be technically tuned lower than perfect .ie lower than a mathematically perfect octave . As you move lower the "gaps" in tuning will increase all the way to the bottom note.
So the question assuming the higher notes "ought to be " tuned a bit lower is taken care of.Looking downwards , the lower notes are the same as higher "stretched " notes looking upwards .
Basically the sound quality of an octave on a piano is the main reason for stretched tuning regardless of the other very technical sounding reasons that humble people like me find so hard to digest .Not wrong , but just hard to digest .

(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 95
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 95
The Tunic OnliPure application does just that: there is a template in the treble, and all the other lower sounds are built in with their harmonics into this template ... It's simple. smile

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,919
Beemer Offline OP
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,919
Originally Posted by Vlad Ants
The Tunic OnliPure application does just that: there is a template in the treble, and all the other lower sounds are built in with their harmonics into this template ... It's simple. smile

Not so simple to pay $699.99
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Bl├╝thner Model A
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,078
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,078
The various partials have to matched to some extent in order for the piano to sound good. That is what an electronic app does by measuring the partials. An aural tuner does the same by listening to the partials. The reference point is A4.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
Okay, so I just read through this whole thing not realizing it was at least a couple of years old. The idea of partials being non-existent (as I think BDB suggested) is entirely new to me. Where might I find a discussion of this topic in its entirety so as to form an educated opinion?

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,712
C
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,712
Peter, there are several Forum posts about that concept if they can be located. There is no other outside discussion that I know about. BDB has been a lone wolf in this forum about his concept. He has thus far been unable to convince anybody of his concept and his explanations have been inadeqate and dismissed by many. I think that BDB views a piano tone waveform as not being formed by an addition of inharmonic partials.


Chris Leslie
Piano technician
http://www.chrisleslie.com.au
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
BDB,

I know you read this stuff. Any comments? I never knew you were a partials denier till now. Virgil Smith had some interesting ideas that border on that viewpoint, though I am pretty sure he still accepted the physical existence of subdivisions of a vibrating wire/string/or anything of that nature (what we refer to as partials).

Incidentally, the inharmonicity of piano partials does not exist when the string is bowed (or at least significantly reduced), but only with a freely vibrating string. Similarly, a plucked string on a cello (or similar) will exhibit inharmonicty that the same bowed string will not.

When I was a kid (8-12 yrs old) my bedroom window happened to be the spot where clothes got installed on the clothesline (which was about 75 ft long). I used to sit there for significantly long periods striking the clothesline (when empty of clothes) and watching the gradually increasing ripple effect, and wondering why it didn't just go up and down like a jump rope. Of course, what I was observing (and being fascinated by) was the physical properties of vibrating strings, and their "partial" or "harmonic" structure. I tried many times to make it act in just one long arc but could not do it. I didn't know it at the time, but that is how strings vibrate...all strings. Once I started studying tuning it began to make sense.

I will admit though that the concept of coincident partials being "where the beat is at" was a difficult one for me to understand early on. I eventually got it and of course can now prove it to those who ask.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,827
D
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,827
Quote
When I was a kid (8-12 yrs old) my bedroom window happened to be the spot where clothes got installed on the clothesline (which was about 75 ft long). I used to sit there for significantly long periods striking the clothesline (when empty of clothes) and watching the gradually increasing ripple effect, and wondering why it didn't just go up and down like a jump rope. Of course, what I was observing (and being fascinated by) was the physical properties of vibrating strings, and their "partial" or "harmonic" structure. I tried many times to make it act in just one long arc but could not do it. I didn't know it at the time, but that is how strings vibrate...all strings. Once I started studying tuning it began to make sense.

A beautiful youthful physics experiment!

In my area, which was once a major shipbuilding area in the world, there is a symbolic sculpture of the bow of a ship. As you drive past, the interference pattern between the slats on the two sides moves, making a wave-like effect, a nice symbol for waves of the sea. Port Glasgow Ship Sculpture

Last edited by David Boyce; 08/21/19 05:59 PM.
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 292
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 292
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Okay, so I just read through this whole thing not realizing it was at least a couple of years old. The idea of partials being non-existent (as I think BDB suggested) is entirely new to me. Where might I find a discussion of this topic in its entirety so as to form an educated opinion?
Pwg


I did a search and came up with posts like this and this in threads that had veered off topic. Perhaps to avoid repeating this pattern we could start a new topic dedicated to the existance of partials?


Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
Thanks Anthony,

I have a suspicion that it would become time consuming with no purpose in the end. I even noticed that I "zoned out" during one or more of those discussions. Let's not...at least I won't start it.

I can see I need to look at dates before "re-reading" something though.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 08/22/19 07:13 AM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,503
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,503
I have been in New York for the past week, and I am sort of catching up. Give me a little time and remind me of what you want, and I will explain it until you are completely confused. smile


Semipro Tech
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
P
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,975
BDB,

Pretty simple: Do vibrating strings have subdivisions (that we call harmonics or partials) in the form of 1/2 the length, 1/3 the length, 1/4 the length, 1/5 the length...etc.?

Okay, I guess I started it.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,503
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,503
Originally Posted by P W Grey
BDB,

Pretty simple: Do vibrating strings have subdivisions (that we call harmonics or partials) in the form of 1/2 the length, 1/3 the length, 1/4 the length, 1/5 the length...etc.?

Okay, I guess I started it.

Pwg


The strings have subdivisions of any fraction of the length, whether they are vibrating or not. Your question is obscure once you get into vibrations and harmonics or partials.

I think that you mean, does the string vibrate in several modes simultaneously? Clearly it cannot, because that would imply that it has nodes at those fractional points of the strings, and they are not going to coincide for any two prime number denominators.

On the other hand, any wave can be expressed as an infinite series of sine waves whose periods are integral fractions, which is how combining many different organ stops produces sounds of different qualities. For certain purposes, it can be useful to compare waves to waves made by combining different sine waves the way that combinations of organ stops do. But it is not how strings vibrate; it is only a rough approximation.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 292
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 292
Since this has very little to do with the question "What is happening when we use stretch tuning" can we please have this side-discussion in a new thread? I've started one at New thread about the existance of partials on strings


Anthony Willey, RPT
PianoMeter
Willey Piano Tuning
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Got myself a Roland UM-ONE MK II
by EVC2017 - 05/08/21 09:51 AM
Putting my new-old piano in order
by SpareKeys - 05/08/21 09:40 AM
Pop songs I learnt as a kid
by KevinM - 05/08/21 07:37 AM
Question for pros - Hiring orchestra?
by trigalg693 - 05/08/21 01:49 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,792
Posts3,091,122
Members101,450
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5