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Joined: Sep 2009
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@TX-Bluebonnet: You didn't show up ... and I don't know why.
Originally Posted by TX-Bluebonnet
Could be there are more people, like me, who subscribed recently (June 2, Silver) but don't show up on the list yet.
Have a look at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showmembers/sb/8/like/-1/page/19.html

You're there ... with no bronze/silver/gold/platinum notation. I don't know why.

The User List pages gave me the impression that very few people subscribe.
But your case suggests that the "badges" that should show in the User List are not showing up.
That is ... there are more subscribers that I've been led to believe.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
As much as I love this forum, and with all due respect to Frank, but forums are a free thing by definition and should remain a free thing. They are not a business. I think he will realize that when he introduces the subscription.


Amen!

In the late 90's I was on an email list and the first forum I joined was the Beretta Forum in 2000. I subsequently became a moderator and participated on that forum and others for years. I've been a member of Dual Sport (motorcycle) forums, Mountain bike forums, gun forums, and now a piano forum. I've never paid (beyond voluntary donations) to participate in any of them. IMO, If you can't afford to run a forum then either shut it down or let someone else try.

I really appreciate Piano World. It has helped me immensely. It's the free exchange of ideas and easy access to a knowledge base via voluntary participation that makes all forums useful. I really don't see subscriptions improving those two areas.

As Solomon said, "To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven" (Ecclesiastes 3:1). Perhaps the season for Piano World had come to an end. I hope not.

God Bless,
David


Last edited by David B; 07/04/19 11:49 PM.

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You may expect a forum to be free. But it's hardly true say a forum is free by definition.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@TX-Bluebonnet: You didn't show up ... and I don't know why.
Originally Posted by TX-Bluebonnet
Could be there are more people, like me, who subscribed recently (June 2, Silver) but don't show up on the list yet.
Have a look at http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showmembers/sb/8/like/-1/page/19.html

You're there ... with no bronze/silver/gold/platinum notation. I don't know why.

The User List pages gave me the impression that very few people subscribe.
But your case suggests that the "badges" that should show in the User List are not showing up.
That is ... there are more subscribers that I've been led to believe.

There's an update on Frank's original post. Apparently there's a glitch for some who paid, depending on the link that was used. He's working on getting it sorted out.


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
You may expect a forum to be free. But it's hardly true say a forum is free by definition.


Agree completely. Frank does a lot to support this place, and he's not obliged to do it. He owns the site. If he wants to cover his costs and earn a living, he has a right to do that.

I'd like to think that enough people who value this place (and are able to do so) would contribute voluntarily at a level that would do the job. If not, either we'll survive as a coalition of the willing, or Frank will shut it down (or otherwise dispose of it) -- as is his right.


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With all due respect, when you create a public forum where people help each other, discuss, express opinion, that's not a business. It's an idealistic place and you most probably created it with that purpose. You may ask for donations, for people to volunteer helping, etc. and even pay on your own, although I'm not suggesting that. When you at some point decide that you "own" the place and you deserve to be paid for it, outside the hosting/maintenance/support expenses, then I call this egoistical. Of course Frank is in his right to do whatever he likes to do with the forum, even if if that would lead to the forum's death. But I fail to see how something created of pure idealistic desire to gather people who love pianos would eventually turn into business.


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As soon as the owner obligates himself, signing contracts and commitments, it’s a business. He is the person responsible to pay the rent regardless if he gets donations or not.


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OK, legally, it's a business of course, I'm not arguing for the sake of literal meaning of the words. A church may also be considered a business since it needs to pay electricity, property taxes, etc. but that doesn't mean it's a business per se. Sorry, I'm not familiar with legal stuff, what I'm saying is forums are a free thing. I've never seen one where I should pay to participate. Maybe I haven't been invited to such forums but I wouldn't join. I don't like the idea of people having to pay to exchange ideas. I'd be rather forum is closed entirely rather than being forced to death through subscriptions which I am pretty convinced is inevitable.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
With all due respect, when you create a public forum where people help each other, discuss, express opinion, that's not a business. It's an idealistic place and you most probably created it with that purpose. You may ask for donations, for people to volunteer helping, etc. and even pay on your own, although I'm not suggesting that. When you at some point decide that you "own" the place and you deserve to be paid for it, outside the hosting/maintenance/support expenses, then I call this egoistical. Of course Frank is in his right to do whatever he likes to do with the forum, even if if that would lead to the forum's death. But I fail to see how something created of pure idealistic desire to gather people who love pianos would eventually turn into business.


It will eventually turn into a business when the founder determines that the time spent to maintain the forum does not allow sufficient time to generate enough other income. Idealism is great but there may come that there is also a pragmatic consideration, evidently asking for donations, advertising and supply sales are not generating enough income

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
As much as I love this forum, and with all due respect to Frank, but forums are a free thing by definition and should remain a free thing. They are not a business. I think he will realize that when he introduces the subscription.


BTW. Piano Street is not a free forum at present. The ‘free membership ‘ went away about one year ago. They hope to reinstate this year. At present, the membership is &12.99 per month or $129 annually automatically renewed


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Yes, a church congregation is a business. Especially when the elders have to personally sign the lease or guarantee the building loan. That’s when it becomes real and sleep more difficult. The elders receive their reward in heaven. The business owner hopes to get his reward on earth. .


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Let's face it - this can go in any number of ways but the most likely of outcomes will be either:

1) people really do need their PW hit and will pay the sum to get it...

2) or the "no way Jose" camp vote with their feet...

3) OR the most likely of outcomes, some bugger off and some stay to pay....BUT will it be enough to pay the piper?

Not on your Nelly if I had to put a bet...

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Originally Posted by dogperson


It will eventually turn into a business when the founder determines that the time spent to maintain the forum does not allow sufficient time to generate enough other income. Idealism is great but there may come that there is also a pragmatic consideration, evidently asking for donations, advertising and supply sales are not generating enough income



If the real purpose is to make money from it, you're probably right.
But then this is the personal decision of the forum owner and not an inevitable necessity.

I think it would be fair if this issue were openly communicated with "I would like to increase my income" instead of claiming that this money is necessary only to maintain the forum.

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Originally Posted by Pinkiepie
Originally Posted by dogperson


It will eventually turn into a business when the founder determines that the time spent to maintain the forum does not allow sufficient time to generate enough other income. Idealism is great but there may come that there is also a pragmatic consideration, evidently asking for donations, advertising and supply sales are not generating enough income



If the real purpose is to make money from it, you're probably right.
But then this is the personal decision of the forum owner and not an inevitable necessity.

I think it would be fair if this issue were openly communicated with "I would like to increase my income" instead of claiming that this money is necessary only to maintain the forum.


Go read Franks post of this. He clearly states that advertising revenue is not enough to support his income. He did not state the money is only for the website


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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I'm wondering (not suggesting it). Does Frank legally own the content in this forum? Imagine someone extracting the entire data from PW through a data crawler and importing it in another forum and then people move there. Is this legal?


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You guys are overthinking the obvious.

1. Frank owns the web site. He can make it a business if he wants to.
2. He has already done so. Years ago.
3. He has plainly said that this is a source of income.
4. His piano supplies side of things earns him some money.
5. His advertising earns him some money.
6. He claims that it's not enough money, so he proposes a subscription model.

I have no cause to doubt what he says.

So it's quite simple, really.

Some may not like it.
But that's the way it is.

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Are there any experts here on the subject of copyright law?
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I'm wondering (not suggesting it). Does Frank legally own the content in this forum? Imagine someone extracting the entire data from PW through a data crawler and importing it in another forum and then people move there. Is this legal?
Laws in the US are fairly liberal. You own your content. It becomes copyright automatically with no need to declare copyright.

As for our contributions ... I don't know who owns them. So would it be theft to appropriate this site's content and post it elsewhere? I don't know.

But ... two things:
1. Whether legal or not, doing so would be crapping on Frank's shoes. He has given us this site gratis for years. Why slap him by taking his stuff? Perhaps it's legal, but I find it immoral.
2. What would be the point of re-siting PW someplace else? If it has financial struggles now, what would be different elsewhere?

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Read Frank's stickies. He plainly says that this is his source of income. He hasn't hidden that. He says so in plain English.
Originally Posted by Pinkiepie
I think it would be fair if this issue were openly communicated with "I would like to increase my income" instead of claiming that this money is necessary only to maintain the forum.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

2. What would be the point of re-siting PW someplace else? If it has financial struggles now, what would be different elsewhere?


I'm NOT advocating that this be done, but there could be some objective benefits.

Namely, economies of scale. Instead of having a single operator running his own web and db servers, routing, hosting, development and maintenance costs, advertising placement, etc., a large forum/aggregator could be able to roll PW into its existing infrastructure, ads portfolio, etc. There are huge forums out there with tens or hundreds of millions of visits per month, and they're able to stay afloat. This would probably not hold if another single operator took over PW, but a larger organization could probably absorb more easily and scale to their own infrastructure.

I'm not sure how much this specifically would apply to PW, but I would suspect nobody believes the setup here is optimally efficient. Frank's a single guy, he's running his own hardware and buying his own software, hiring devs every time something needs to be done...that can't be easy.


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
He has given us this site gratis for years.
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
He plainly says that this is his source of income.

These two post do not reconcile. smile

No one is entitled to an income simply because they own a business.


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