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Oh, I know why...you're concerned your teacher may fly into a CG-esque Branch Davidian rage, and cease to accommodate.
Well, as I say, secret Invention learning gets around it.

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I have a low end Yamaha P series keyboard nonetheless has 88 keys. Even with DPs that have 88 keys, you have the low-end keyboards and the high end. The lower down you go, you are more likely to get semi-weighed keys that are lighter than acoustic piano keys. And even if you have a 3 foot pedals unit, it is likely the pedals are plastic instead of brass. The higher up keyboards do have keys with a textured surface that feels less like playing on plastic.

And the sound quality have improved significantly although the sound of DPs are not replicas of acoustic pianos. You have the Casio Celviano GP-300 & 500 designed in collaboration with Bechstein Piano with 3 grand piano sounds (Berlin, Hamburg & Vienna) and the Yamaha Clavinova with the CFX & Bösendorfer sound. You can get close to the sound of an acoustic grand piano but sound quality is subjective. .

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I received my Studiologic SL73 today. Didn't have time to connect it and control the reface CP and my iPad, however I played the keyboard and it gave me a hard time. Its dynamic weight is quite high and is similar to how I feel the dynamic weight on my N1X. However I'm really far from saying they are similar, since on the N1X I feel stuff happening under the keys, whereas on the Studiologic it's just a single smooth motion top to bottom and back, no escapement or varying weight/resistance. Taking in mind it's a €330 controller (and you can have the 88-key Studio version for just a bit more), it would probably work as a great budget controller for VST-s. I hear people complaining of keys becoming clicky with the time and all sorts of problems with Fatar own controllers but other than that with a bit of luck it would be a dream practice machine for pianists on a tight budget. And that's their mid-level Fatar TP100/LR action. As far as I understand the TP40/WOOD in the slightly more expensive SL88 Grand is even better than that.

Last edited by CyberGene; 06/28/19 05:54 AM.

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I think what Ando and Gombessa have said re speakers on the Novus 10 hands on thread says all about why digitals will never, with current technology, match acoustics, irrespective of the action. I think with current actions and the wide variety that exists with all acoustics, acrion is the least problem.


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One point I'd make is - When people are saying that DP's don't sound like "an acoustic piano" - which acoustic piano? In what setting? A lot of acoustic pianos sound very different from one another. Perhaps people mean "How much does the Steinway setting on Pianoteq sound like a standard Steinway"?

Example - if you take a knackered upright with half the hammer felts worn, completely out of tune being played in a really dry acoustic environment, one might find some DP's actually sound more like an acoustic than this particular upright.

Which acoustics are you guys comparing against?

I just treat the DP like another piano, as the acoustic I've played vary so much, I don't think I could really say what a typical acoustic sounds or feels like. There are some really weird ones out there.

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I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch? Was it with the introduction of Steinway’s state of the art (sarcasm) accelerated action, duplex, carbon, monoxide, satin, ivory-synthetic?

The piano has reached its limit (so has sampling grin); whereas, the digital (as with modeling) is only getting started!

It, the acoustic piano, will join relics like the harpsichord in the museum of ancient artifacts that were once prominent. Yes, you can still play the Goldbergs on the harpsichord, but why would you want to do that? You can play Beethoven on the piano-forte, but why would you want to do that?
In the future you’d be able to find a piano hidden in some abandoned mansion, and yes, you’d be able to play Bill Evans on that there Steinway, but why would you want to do that when playing on the Novus NV99 will be a more-gratifying yet much cheaper alternative?

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Originally Posted by Pete14
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch? Was it with the introduction of Steinway’s state of the art (sarcasm) accelerated action, duplex, carbon, monoxide, satin, ivory-synthetic?

The piano has reached its limit (so has sampling grin); whereas, the digital (as with modeling) is only getting started!

It, the acoustic piano, will join relics like the harpsichord in the museum of ancient artifacts that were once prominent. Yes, you can still play the Goldbergs on the harpsichord, but why would you want to do that? You can play Beethoven on the piano-forte, but why would you want to do that?
In the future you’d be able to find a piano hidden in some abandoned mansion, and yes, you’d be able to play Bill Evans on that there Steinway, but why would you want to do that when playing on the Novus NV99 will be a more-gratifying yet much cheaper alternative?


The main problem, as discussed in the Novus thread, is about how sound is generated. Acoustic pianos can reach peaks of 110 to 120 db in the player position. The sound is also spread out from a soundboard, which spreads sound into the room in a different way than small transducers do. There is only so much you can do about this at the moment. Sound waves follow the laws of physics, and the laws of physics dictate that you need to move a lot of air to create a lot of sound. Some very small speakers are able to reach deep bass and high spl levels by using copious amounts of amplifier power (Devialet phantom etc), but have you seen their price? This also comes with the cost of higher distortion (bigger transducers can move more air without distorting, that applies to pianos as well as to loudspeakers).

I'm also a big fan of Pianoteq and the modelled approach. It may not be 100 percent there yet, in terms of fully recreating the sound of a great acoustic, but it's very close in my view.

DP actions are also getting closer and closer to the real thing, as seen with the NV10 and the N1X etc. But I would be very surprised if anything comes along which can rival the sound output of a good acoustic for at least 30 years. And by then we'll be living in the midst of large-scale climate emergency, so very expensive DPs will probably not be the thing people prioritize the most. But we'll see. If excellent DPs come along earlier, I'll only be happy to be proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.


I just bought a book of the 15 Inventions for less than the price of a pint.. An ebay used edition, with teacher's pencilling included! Trying the first, naturally. I don't find Bach easy, but enjoy the note interactions. Magic!


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From the two-voice inventions 1, 4, 8, 14 are my favorite.


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It has been discussed a lot on this forum but for those who missed it. The great Bach interpreter Glenn Gould wanted his piano technician to regulate his Steinway in a way that resembles a harpsichord: short key dip, hence short hammer blow distance. That's a tough task and so his technician struggled whole night and ended up with a weird defect that some notes would randomly be doubled, which they called "hiccup". Well, guess what, Glenn Gould liked it and it can be heard on a few of his Bach recordings, Inventions included. I've always been EXTREMELY irritated by that and could barely listen to those recordings before wanting to smash my head in the wall (and I'm not even mentioning Glenn's humming) laugh


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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.


I just bought a book of the 15 Inventions for less than the price of a pint.. An ebay used edition, with teacher's pencilling included! Trying the first, naturally. I don't find Bach easy, but enjoy the note interactions. Magic!

And the title is? I could keep a lookout on Evilbay for a similar dirtcheap bargain.

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Originally Posted by thickfingers
Oh, I know why...you're concerned your teacher may fly into a CG-esque Branch Davidian rage, and cease to accommodate.
Well, as I say, secret Invention learning gets around it.

Well, I assume that she knows well my capabilities and despite what I may think, if she thinks I'm not yet ready for Inventions, then I assume I am still missing skills needed for Inventions. Not going to worry about that now. There's plenty of stuff to play without playing any inventions.

There are still pieces I am not ready for that I'd like to play, but I'm finding the reality is that I just have no time for them at all. All my time is taken up just practicing/playing my assigned pieces.


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Originally Posted by Pete14
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch?

Ohh Pete....You cannot replace the original acoustic instrument with an electronic imitation. smile
Makers like Fazioli and Steingraeber make improvements all the time.
If you were to significantly change, and or reinvent from scratch, it would be a different instrument.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Oh, I know why...you're concerned your teacher may fly into a CG-esque Branch Davidian rage, and cease to accommodate.
Well, as I say, secret Invention learning gets around it.

Well, I assume that she knows well my capabilities and despite what I may think, if she thinks I'm not yet ready for Inventions, then I assume I am still missing skills needed for Inventions. Not going to worry about that now. There's plenty of stuff to play without playing any inventions.

There are still pieces I am not ready for that I'd like to play, but I'm finding the reality is that I just have no time for them at all. All my time is taken up just practicing/playing my assigned pieces.



Hmm.. I've been told the same thing not by a teacher though by people on this forum. So I am working my way through Clementi Sonatinas and Bach Little Preludes but I wonder, is there something that those in the "Inventions Club" are trying to keep from us? If we, the unworthy, start trying Bach Inventions do we attain a new level of piano enlightenment, is this how you achieve classical piano nirvana?


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Originally Posted by oneilt130
So I am working my way through Clementi Sonatinas and Bach Little Preludes but I wonder, is there something that those in the "Inventions Club" are trying to keep from us? If we, the unworthy, start trying Bach Inventions do we attain a new level of piano enlightenment, is this how you achieve classical piano nirvana?

I seem to recall my teacher said Preludes come before Inventions, so I am hoping I can start Preludes soon. smile


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by thickfingers
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bach. I can't wait until I can play some Inventions, but I'm letting my teacher take the lead on that.

Why? You could do it secretly--he need never know! (Or only at a later, more appropriate time).
Often thought about having a crack myself at those. Don't know why I haven't...may be a time issue. I'll bet they're a lot of fun to play, maybe even before mastery.


I just bought a book of the 15 Inventions for less than the price of a pint.. An ebay used edition, with teacher's pencilling included! Trying the first, naturally. I don't find Bach easy, but enjoy the note interactions. Magic!

And the title is? I could keep a lookout on Evilbay for a similar dirtcheap bargain.


J S Bach 2 part Inventions, the album is "Easier Piano Pieces No33"


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Just to chime in the discussion...I just received my Sennheiser 6xx and I like them! The grip is a bit tight, but I can adjust to it, eventually. The sound is not distorted, no boomy bass, they reproduce music very faithfully! I don't understand how I could listen to anything through my screen built-in sh*tty popping speakers.

Anyway, I was just listening to some Paul Barton Feurich recordings (check him out if you didn't, he is amazing!) and sometimes it even sounds like a digital piano. In a way: very clear sound, even dry without the pedal. I think it just became clear to me that what makes acoustic acoustic through speakers are resonances - I could hear all the fine interplay when he lifted dampers, but when you sample note-by-note into a digital and don't use a pedal, it's hard to tell the difference. What makes acoustic acoustic face to face is, as someone pointed, the way it spreads the sound around in a room.

On a side note, listening to my favourite 50s pop playlist through these headphones makes me cry. Though, some 50s songs make me cry anyway, so not sure how much are the headphones to blame.

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Originally Posted by Chopin Acolyte
On a side note, listening to my favourite 50s pop playlist through these headphones makes me cry. Though, some 50s songs make me cry anyway, so not sure how much are the headphones to blame.

You're a bit young to be listening to 50's pop, aren't you? Your parents weren't even likely alive then smile


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"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
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Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by Pete14
I think that digitals will not only match but will also surpass acoustics as we know them. It’s just the nature of innovation.
Once a technology reaches its limits (as with acoustics) a new one emerges (digitals). When was the last time you heard of the acoustic piano being significantly improved and/or reinvented from scratch?

Ohh Pete....You cannot replace the original acoustic instrument with an electronic imitation. smile
Makers like Fazioli and Steingraeber make improvements all the time.
If you were to significantly change, and or reinvent from scratch, it would be a different instrument.




The other day I walked by a well-known piano dealer, and to my surprise, all the shades were down. I wondered what had happened to the usual display of acoustics reaching out at you from the inside, through the shades, and past the shining sun.
I walked in despite, and to my horror there sat an N1X surrounded by an angry mob of acoustics. It yelled at me, the N1X, “get me out of here; I don’t want to die. I’m not an acoustic though thy eyes might perceive otherwise”!
It was a horrific scene but I could not save that N1X, for you see, the acoustics stood in the way, stubbornly blinding me with their damp yet polished stance.
I curse thee, acoustic! I curse thee for not letting me get to that there N1X!

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

You're a bit young to be listening to 50's pop, aren't you? Your parents weren't even likely alive then smile


If I'm too young to be listening to 50s, then why do we even have this forum for classical music? I bet nobody's parents were alive then laugh (only 1800s kids will remember)

My parents were born in early 50s. They don't quite like 50s music though. My mom sometimes listens to rap shocked

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