2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Advanced Piano Tricks
Advanced Piano Tricks
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
69 members (butchkoch, bimzdbear, CianistAndPomposer, clothearednincompo, 36251, almo82, accordeur, 14 invisible), 679 guests, and 388 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
A
alu1 Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
Hi guys, im thinking about buying this book to work on my technique, i already have the op.139 which i use for sightreading. Do u guys think it's worth to buy it? Or there are better books?

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,487
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,487
It can be downloaded for free at many sites.



[Linked Image]
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
A
arc Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
A
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
Download the book and evaluate it before buying it... or just read it on a tablet computer...

https://imslp.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Finger_Dexterity,_Op.740_(Czerny,_Carl)

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,125
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,125
I played a fair amount of the School of Velocity and The Art of Finger Dexterity and I think it's a waste of time unless you see them as viable pieces for public performance.

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
A
alu1 Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
I rather have the physical edition, i just wanted to see if anyone that has work with it knows if it really helps with technique.

Originally Posted by MikeN
I played a fair amount of the School of Velocity and The Art of Finger Dexterity and I think it's a waste of time unless you see them as viable pieces for public performance.


Didn't u feel any improvment at all in your technique? What would u suggest for me then?

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 378
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 378
Originally Posted by alu1
I rather have the physical edition, i just wanted to see if anyone that has work with it knows if it really helps with technique.

Originally Posted by MikeN
I played a fair amount of the School of Velocity and The Art of Finger Dexterity and I think it's a waste of time unless you see them as viable pieces for public performance.


Didn't u feel any improvment at all in your technique? What would u suggest for me then?


Technique comes from actually paying attention to what you're doing, choreographing, making predictions, and evaluating the results. This can occur in exercises or repertoire, but if you're actually doing the real mental work needed with the correct amount of attention to detail then you'll realize that you'll save much more time doing it on repertoire. (Note that I'm talking about technique in physical terms, and I'm not referring to technique in terms of practical musicianship, which people often conflate.)

Exercises more judiciously used for technique are when you want to systematically investigate a problem, but you'll learn more by choosing the variables yourself and figuring out the underlying issues and solutions rather than just mindlessly reading those written by someone else.

Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
A
alu1 Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
Interesting thoughts youve made, my teacher told me that czerny helps with technique and i was figuring which one should i buy to get it improved but now that you said that, im having a different thoughts about exercises at all. And you are telling me the exactly thing that i wanted to know, technique in physical terms. That being said, i could actually work in harder pieces than my level now and it would be fine as long as i could manage the difficulties of techniques i would encouter?

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,558
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,558
Originally Posted by alu1
[...] That being said, i could actually work in harder pieces than my level now and it would be fine as long as i could manage the difficulties of techniques i would encouter?


I don't see that it would be necessary to work on harder pieces than those at your current level. Perfecting the technique required in your current level pieces should be your goal and probably should be more effective because, potentially, you should be able to do it. Just because Czerny exercises didn't work for one pianist doesn't necessarily mean they won't work for you.

Why not try and find out, first by downloading free copies from IMSLP.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,397
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by alu1
Hi guys, im thinking about buying this book to work on my technique, i already have the op.139 which i use for sightreading. Do u guys think it's worth to buy it? Or there are better books?

I think Op. 740 would be a good investment. Go for it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, Czerny was a significant musical figure and a much-maligned genius. I deeply regret some of the published comments I have made about him. I was born and raised as a piano student on Op. 261. Op. 299 has its uses, but is generally second-rate music IMO. But Op. 740 is a different animal. When I play or listen to these pieces, I hear hints of Hummel and embryonic evidence of the creative processes that enabled Chopin to effectuate the quantum leap that transformed etudes into great art. I know that sounds like pretentious pseudery, but I think it's true.

Just for instance, here's a charming and rather fascinating sample of Op. 740:


SRF
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,558
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,558
Originally Posted by alu1
Interesting thoughts youve made, my teacher told me that czerny helps with technique and i was figuring which one should i buy to get it improved but now that you said that, im having a different thoughts about exercises at all. And you are telling me the exactly thing that i wanted to know, technique in physical terms. That being said, i could actually work in harder pieces than my level now and it would be fine as long as i could manage the difficulties of techniques i would encouter?


I fail to see why you wouldn't trust your teacher's judgment on what might help your technique. You are going to be swayed by the opinion of one poster on an internet site who claims that Czerny was a waste of time (and it well may have been for that person!) rather than accept the suggestion of your teacher.

Why are you paying for your teacher's expertise (unless s/he is a charlatan) if you feel you can't trust what s/he recommends?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,397
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by BruceD
I fail to see why you wouldn't trust your teacher's judgment on what might help your technique. You are going to be swayed by the opinion of one poster on an internet site who claims that Czerny was a waste of time (and it well may have been for that person!) rather than accept the suggestion of your teacher.

+1


SRF
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
A
alu1 Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 35
There are a lot of controversial thoughts about Czerny in the internet and i want to make sure i'm taking the right path to be a better player, maybe there is something else that could work for me too, not only czerny, im looking at every options. I mean, wouldnt you be skeptical too if you search in the internet a LOT of people saying that czerny isnt that good, and others saying it could work.. i'm just looking for the most viable ways for me to study.

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,125
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,125
Originally Posted by alu1
I rather have the physical edition, i just wanted to see if anyone that has work with it knows if it really helps with technique.

Originally Posted by MikeN
I played a fair amount of the School of Velocity and The Art of Finger Dexterity and I think it's a waste of time unless you see them as viable pieces for public performance.


Didn't u feel any improvment at all in your technique? What would u suggest for me then?


You'll excuse me, but my point wasn't so eloquently made and I take full responsibility for that.

Truth of the matter is yes, I DID learn things from my teacher introducing me to certain aspects of piano technique through Czerny, but it wasn't the Czerny doing the teaching. It was a tool that just happened to be apart of my first teacher's arsenal and for a good teacher who understands how to teach piano technique, ANYTHING can be used as a tool. My issue with that opus of Czerny, though, is that these long 2-5 page pieces take quite a bit of time to prepare that could be used on something more musically rich, it's generally the same technique over and over again and the patterns feel very derivative of the music of that time which is great if your going to play nothing but classical music, but a bit lacking IMO for introducing one to the techniques involved in virtuoso music spanning to the present time while also providing adequate ground to teach musical concepts.

I recognize most pianists generally need less demanding material to start out with unless they're some sort of prodigy. I'd recommend Kabalevsky Op.27 which I think is generally more succinct, more varied, and more musically successful. I think the Bartok Mikrokosmo can also be quite a successful tool depending on one's level, but this is all my opinion based on what I've known other teachers I think highly of to recommend.

THAT SAID, it's only upon reading subsequent posts that you mentioned your teacher suggested the Czerny. In that case, I'd suggest you get it and hear them out. If they just have you mindlessly plow through the book, I'd suggest a different teacher if available. If they use it intelligently and introduce different concepts of movement like: Hey you move your body this way to play this passage. Look, this you should play with rotation, that sort of thing, your probably fine.

THAT SAID!!!!! I'm a random person on the internet. PLEASE, don't mindlessly take advice from a random person on the internet.

Last edited by MikeN; 05/05/19 03:21 AM.
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,130
J
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,130
I love doing Czerny, I do it really slowly and carefully, playing very softly and expressively, paying attention to each note. The reason I do this is because I find it therapeutic. I don't think that it's a cure-all or even necessary, but I enjoy it, and actually it has improved my playing. Mind you I don't know if it has really improved my playing or if I just feel more ready, I don't have a 'control' version of me that hasn't done it....


YAMAHA Artist
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,612
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,612
Originally Posted by alu1
There are a lot of controversial thoughts about Czerny in the internet and i want to make sure i'm taking the right path to be a better player, maybe there is something else that could work for me too, not only czerny, im looking at every options. I mean, wouldnt you be skeptical too if you search in the internet a LOT of people saying that czerny isnt that good, and others saying it could work.. i'm just looking for the most viable ways for me to study.


That is the issue with Internet or YT; you will find just about any opinion, not knowing who is speaking, his level of experience or success; sometimes the context is not always clear or the exact audience is not specified. So I am always very carefull about opinions of people I do not know.

That said I have used Czerny in the past, though not that particular book. The main issue is that many of his books are redundant and they are not built as a method. This one in particular is long (more than 100 pages) so you will very unlikely use more than a few exercices in there, unless you are already so advanced that any of them would not take you more than a few days to nail down. So usually you would focus on a selection of those, made by your teacher.

Is Czerny usefull ? Some of his exercices are, so well chosen for a particular purpose yes. But there is a ton of piano exercices out there by Czerny and others talented pianists. Moszkowsky wrote some that are extraordinary, Brahms also and many others. Sometimes they would address specific areas like for example double thirds. So that is where the teacher is usefull; his job is to select the relevant exercices/pieces that are needed for your particular case to make you improve your skills. There is nothing wrong using Czerny if that is done as part of a well planned teaching approach.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,130
J
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,130
+1


YAMAHA Artist
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,487
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,487
Originally Posted by SiFi
Originally Posted by alu1
Hi guys, im thinking about buying this book to work on my technique, i already have the op.139 which i use for sightreading. Do u guys think it's worth to buy it? Or there are better books?

I think Op. 740 would be a good investment. Go for it.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, Czerny was a significant musical figure and a much-maligned genius. I deeply regret some of the published comments I have made about him. I was born and raised as a piano student on Op. 261. Op. 299 has its uses, but is generally second-rate music IMO. But Op. 740 is a different animal. When I play or listen to these pieces, I hear hints of Hummel and embryonic evidence of the creative processes that enabled Chopin to effectuate the quantum leap that transformed etudes into great art. I know that sounds like pretentious pseudery, but I think it's true.

Just for instance, here's a charming and rather fascinating sample of Op. 740:


+1 Czerny is a much maligned genius!



[Linked Image]
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 54
H
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
H
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by SiFi

But Op. 740 is a different animal. When I play or listen to these pieces, I hear hints of Hummel and embryonic evidence of the creative processes that enabled Chopin to effectuate the quantum leap that transformed etudes into great art. I know that sounds like pretentious pseudery, but I think it's true.


Opus 740 was written some 15 years after Chopin wrote this studies. And 7 years after Hummel died!

Each to their own, but for me, it is a case of the bland leading the blind...

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,513
H
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
H
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 5,513
Alu1 the title is spot on. It is really about finger dexterity. I have worked on it a lot when I was a teenager and it really developed my dexterity.
You will benefit from studying op.740 when you play Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, Haydn and to some extend Liszt in the future.
However it won't help for some Chopin. Where you would have to adopt a different technique.
IMO it is not a waste of time. Go for it.

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,558
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,558
Originally Posted by alu1
There are a lot of controversial thoughts about Czerny in the internet and i want to make sure i'm taking the right path to be a better player, maybe there is something else that could work for me too, not only czerny, im looking at every options. I mean, wouldnt you be skeptical too if you search in the internet a LOT of people saying that czerny isnt that good, and others saying it could work.. i'm just looking for the most viable ways for me to study.


Although I am repeating myself, I still don't understand why you are trusting information from Internet unknowns against that of your teacher. Why are you seemingly so trustful of Internet posts from people whose skills you know nothing about?

It is not making any sense to me when you have a teacher whom you are paying for instruction and with whom you could discuss this. What will your teacher's reaction be when you say: "Well, people on the Internet tell me ..."?


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!

Free Piano Lovers Newsletter is out now!
Piano News 2021 - 2022!
---------------------
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Sell Your Piano on our world famous Piano Forums!
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Pratt Reed Grand Piano Action
by Rburt53 - 01/18/22 07:41 AM
Happy birthday, Sam!
by jotur - 01/18/22 06:11 AM
Book Recommendations
by Qazsedcft - 01/18/22 03:53 AM
Novus 5 no "fading effect" after release
by Usheraname - 01/18/22 02:38 AM
Digital pianos - starting time
by JosefPirkl - 01/18/22 01:30 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics211,202
Posts3,161,744
Members104,058
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2022 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5