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Originally Posted by jgbs
I tried with pianoteq test stage and even if I don't like very much the sound, there is no buzzing neither with headphone nor speakers.


May I ask you to clarify how the computer was connected to your NV10, please?

I recall reading a report from opus64, here stating that the speaker hiss when playing Garritan CFX through the NV10's speakers was actually worse than when using the instrument's built-in sounds.

This suggests to me that the "buzzing" you are experiencing is separate to the "noise" reported by opus64.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Hello James, I am happy to read that Kawai is working on the softaware and I really hope the solution will be find because I definitivly prefer the sound of NV10 and the use of VST is a wobbly solution for me.

For my test with pianoteq I just used a USB wire between NV10 and the computer.
It's fairly simple and there is no hum and sound was clear.
I used the headphones directly from computer and to listen the speakers I connected the headphones output to the line input of the NV10.

When using the NV10 alone buzzing starts to be really embarrassing around A4. I say "around" because it's not always at the same place and not always at the same level (sometimes Bflat or B). And from E6 flat to the sharpest the sound really twists the ears.

I hope this clarify.

Kind regards

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Originally Posted by jgbs
For my test with pianoteq I just used a USB wire between NV10 and the computer.
It's fairly simple and there is no hum and sound was clear.
I used the headphones directly from computer and to listen the speakers I connected the headphones output to the line input of the NV10.

So you did use two simultaneous cables between the NV10 and the computer, then? Both an audio cable for line-in on NV10 and also a USB cable? Both connected at one time from the same computer? Sort of surprised you didn't hear any ground loop hum in this case...


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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Originally Posted by jgbs
For my test with pianoteq I just used a USB wire between NV10 and the computer.
It's fairly simple and there is no hum and sound was clear.
...
I connected the headphones output to the line input of the NV10.


Thank you for clarifying.

I recall reading a post from another NV10 customer who played Garritan CFX (another popular software piano) through the instrument's speaker system, and actually reported more speaker hiss than when using the built-in sound engine. This suggest that the "buzzing" issue you're experiencing may be different to the "hiss" sound reported by that user.

Originally Posted by jgbs
When using the NV10 alone buzzing starts to be really embarrassing around A4. I say "around" because it's not always at the same place and not always at the same level (sometimes Bflat or B). And from E6 flat to the sharpest the sound really twists the ears.


I'm not sure I fully understand your explanation, however it's strange that the characteristic should change positions.

May I ask if you have checked tried checking another NV10 instrument (perhaps at a dealer's store?) to see if the issue is related to your piano?

Kind regards,
James
x


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by jgbs
For my test with pianoteq I just used a USB wire between NV10 and the computer.
It's fairly simple and there is no hum and sound was clear.
I used the headphones directly from computer and to listen the speakers I connected the headphones output to the line input of the NV10.

So you did use two simultaneous cables between the NV10 and the computer, then? Both an audio cable for line-in on NV10 and also a USB cable? Both connected at one time from the same computer? Sort of surprised you didn't hear any ground loop hum in this case...

That right. No noise even with this loop.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by jgbs
For my test with pianoteq I just used a USB wire between NV10 and the computer.
It's fairly simple and there is no hum and sound was clear.
...
I connected the headphones output to the line input of the NV10.


Thank you for clarifying.
I recall reading a post from another NV10 customer who played Garritan CFX (another popular virtual piano library) through the instrument's speaker system, and actually reported more speaker hiss than the built-in sound engine. This suggest that the "buzzing" issue you're experiencing may be different to the "hiss" sound reported by another user.

Originally Posted by jgbs
When using the NV10 alone buzzing starts to be really embarrassing around A4. I say "around" because it's not always at the same place and not always at the same level (sometimes Bflat or B). And from E6 flat to the sharpest the sound really twists the ears.


I'm not sure I fully understand your explanation, however it's strange that the characteristic should change positions.

May I ask if you have checked tried checking another NV10 instrument (perhaps at a dealer's store?) to see if the issue is related to your piano?

Kind regards,
James
x

I confirm that the buzzing bug is probably different to the hiss. But anyway it's not hiss but parasitic vibration. If I had to make a visual analogy I would say a "hard glitter".
And yes, it is strange that the buzzing noise manifest at different level an place on the keyboard. But in the sharp (E6 and sharper) it's always the same.

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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

So you did use two simultaneous cables between the NV10 and the computer, then? Both an audio cable for line-in on NV10 and also a USB cable? Both connected at one time from the same computer? Sort of surprised you didn't hear any ground loop hum in this case...


Just as a datapoint, I use a usb cable from my CA67 to a Macbook Air, and an stereo audio cable from the headphone output from Macbook Air to CA67 line in with Piano Marvel and it all works perfectly without any ground loop problems (or latency). I can either listen through the CA67 speakers or plug in headphones into the headphone jack in the CA67 without any problems. The piano marvel countdown and the sound of the music its sending is mixed with my playing (and of course piano marvel is recording my midi inputs to compare to the score). Really grateful for the CA67 little volume control on line in as I can adjust so the mix in volumes is perfect.


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Originally Posted by akc42
[quote=Tyrone Slothrop]
So you did use two simultaneous cables between the NV10 and the computer, then? Both an audio cable for line-in on NV10 and also a USB cable? Both connected at one time from the same computer? Sort of surprised you didn't hear any ground loop hum in this case...


That depends entirely on the devices, their interconnects and power supplies. With my current DP, I have one laptop where I experience no ground loop noise at all regardless of the adapter, another laptop that produces an unbearable amount of noise regardless of the adapters used (MIDI/USB or USB/USB), and a desktop PC that produces ground loop noise over USB/USB but none over MIDI/USB. And the laptop that produces noise with my current DP was the one I had connected without issues to my previous DP. This is what makes difficult to address ground loops...

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another laptop that produces an unbearable amount of noise regardless of the adapters used (MIDI/USB or USB/USB)

This is strange. MIDI should not allow noise to be produced because it is opto-isolated, exactly to avoid these kinds of problems. There should be no direct metal contact between devices using midi, through their MIDI cabling.

......This is what makes difficult to address ground loops...

Ground (or 'earth') loops are the very devil himself.


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Originally Posted by toddy
another laptop that produces an unbearable amount of noise regardless of the adapters used (MIDI/USB or USB/USB)

This is strange. MIDI should not allow noise to be produced because it is opto-isolated, exactly to avoid these kinds of problems. There should be no direct metal contact between devices using midi, through their MIDI cabling.


It is only strange if you assume that the MIDI/USB adapters on the market are actually observing the MIDI specification smile Moreover, the opto-coupling circuits are part of the MIDI electrical specification concerning direct MIDI connections (i.e. DIN MIDI to DIN MIDI). There is no such requirement on MIDI/USB adapters. Even if a MIDI/USB adapter uses optical isolation across the data circuit, that will only eliminate the ground loop if the the rest of the circuit is properly designed.... which is definitely *not* always the case (check this link or search for technical reviews of midi interfaces).

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Originally Posted by arc7urus

It is only strange if you assume that the MIDI/USB adapters on the market are actually observing the MIDI specification smile Moreover, the opto-coupling circuits are part of the MIDI electrical specification concerning direct MIDI connections (i.e. DIN MIDI to DIN MIDI). There is no such requirement on MIDI/USB adapters.

MIDI-USB interfaces also have at least one DIN connector, so they have to comply with the spec, because they want to talk serial MIDI.

However the requirement for any MIDI device providing optical isolation is only mandatory for the receiving end (MIDI IN). Which for instrument-to-PC connections is the USB interface.

On the receiving end there is also no ground connection allowed, grounding happens at the MIDI transmitter (the instrument).

So when you get cheaply built USB-MIDI-converter with MIDI ground connected to USB ground, you get noise.


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Unrelated but wanted to share my relief because why not

Using Garritan CFX Full, waiting 2 full minutes (counted using stopwatch) for it to load up each time was getting tedious and I wanted to cut it down.

With already using 16GB DDR4 Memory @ 3000mhz, I decided to purchase an NVMe SSD for VST work, to which I achieve pretty ridiculous speeds of 3550MB/s read & 1000MB/s write, as the disk I had Garritan on before was pretty old/slow. This shaved a whopping 10 seconds off the CFX load up time! (Sigh...)

After all that - I noticed one of the protection software on my PC (Acronis Active Protection) was causing RAM speed issues with all programs universally. With that disabled, CFX only takes about 10 seconds to load now!

Also happy that Outlook opens in 3 seconds now instead of ~30, and the PC feels generally faster. All the months I was crippling my PC unknowingly ....

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Originally Posted by Phoerocks
After all that - I noticed one of the protection software on my PC (Acronis Active Protection) was causing RAM speed issues with all programs universally. With that disabled, CFX only takes about 10 seconds to load now!

Also happy that Outlook opens in 3 seconds now instead of ~30, and the PC feels generally faster. All the months I was crippling my PC unknowingly ....

Wow, Acronis sounds terrible!


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Originally Posted by Phoerocks
After all that - I noticed one of the protection software on my PC (Acronis Active Protection) was causing RAM speed issues with all programs universally. With that disabled, CFX only takes about 10 seconds to load now! Also happy that Outlook opens in 3 seconds now instead of ~30, and the PC feels generally faster. All the months I was crippling my PC unknowingly ....

Well, that is the side effect of running (sometimes multiple) virus and malware/ransomware/adware/whatever-ware protection software. Such software is not a guarantee of protection. But you can be sure it will cripple the performance of any high-spec computer...

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Originally Posted by Phoerocks


After all that - I noticed one of the protection software on my PC (Acronis Active Protection) was causing RAM speed issues with all programs universally. With that disabled, CFX only takes about 10 seconds to load now!


CFX can load extremely quickly (within a few seconds) if its buffer remains cached. After a reboot or if the cache is overwritten it can take 1+min on a high end NVMe system.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Phoerocks


After all that - I noticed one of the protection software on my PC (Acronis Active Protection) was causing RAM speed issues with all programs universally. With that disabled, CFX only takes about 10 seconds to load now!


CFX can load extremely quickly (within a few seconds) if its buffer remains cached. After a reboot or if the cache is overwritten it can take 1+min on a high end NVMe system.


Yeah, wait a second Phoerocks. Are you saying that after a boot up it now only takes 10 seconds to load the samples?


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I'm not sure how this relates to the NV10, but you really don't need anything other than Windows Defender, which is built in to Windows 10. All antivirus programs I've ever seen slow the computer down to a crawl (seemingly regardless of its specifications) and are probably worse than the effects of an actual virus. I still run MalwareBytes (free version) every few months to make sure, but that is a one-off scan that doesn't sit in memory and cripple the computer every time I try to do anything.

Even Windows Defender can slow things down. I added a rule for it to ignore the "CFX Lite.exe" process, and now CFX loads in half the time. That said, it doesn't seem to make any difference to other instruments so maybe it's a CFX thing.


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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello arc7urus,

Originally Posted by arc7urus
...the BT settings in the favourites are not being applied anymore... I experienced this problem several times with the shs and headphone settings, but this is the first time with BT.


According to this page of the owner's manual, Bluetooth settings are *not* stored to a Favorite memory. This is also true of SHS and other headphone settings.

However, as has been discussed in the past, it's possible to "store" these and other settings as the new "default" configuration by using the "Startup with Favorites" function. Indeed, this function is similar to the "Startup Settings" feature of previous generation instruments.

So, to specify BT MIDI enabled, BT Audio disabled as the new "default" configuration:
1. Set Bluetooth MIDI to On, and Bluetooth MIDI to Off in the Settings menu.
2. Store this to configuration to a new Favorite memory (e.g. "BT MIDI ONLY"). (Note that even thought Bluetooth settings are not stored to Favorite memories, this step is still required).
3. Select the Favorites screen, select the "BT MIDI ONLY" memory, then select "Startup with Favorites" in the menu.
This should ensure that when the instrument powers on, BT MIDI is enabled, and BT Audio is disabled.

I hope this helps - please let me know if this process works for you.

Thanks for the explanation! But the process you are describing seems to be the same as the workaround proposed by JoBert a while ago. If that is the case, this undocumented feature will eventually stop working. The confusing part is that the manual says a Favourite only saves the settings listed in page 81. But then you suggest to create a Favourite and start with that Favourite to store the unlisted settings. So, it seems that other settings are actually being stored in the Favourite after all. Note that if a different startup favourite is selected afterwards, then these "default" settings might also change (I say might because the behaviour is not consistent). So, this will only work while the startup Favourite remains unchanged - and even in that case, it is not guaranteed (e.g. creating a new favourite might break the "default" settings). As I described in my post, the headphones settings stopped working multiple times during last year. The BT settings only failed recently. And when this happens, the Favourites need to be recreated and this workaround reapplied. But I find it hard to believe this is how the DP was designed to operate...

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Hello arc7urus,

Originally Posted by arc7urus
...the process you are describing seems to be the same as the workaround proposed by JoBert a while ago.


Yes, that's right. JoBert was the first person to document this behaviour on PianoWorld, although I believe it was already known to Kawai staff, including myself.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
...this undocumented feature will eventually stop working.


Can you explain why?

Originally Posted by arc7urus
...the manual says a Favourite only saves the settings listed in page 81.


Yes, that's correct. Other settings not listed on that page will not be recalled when changing Favorite memories - this is the intended behaviour.

Originally Posted by arc7urus
...But then you suggest to create a Favourite and start with that Favourite to store the unlisted settings.


Yes. As I mentioned, the "Startup with Favorites" function is similar to the "Startup Settings" feature of previous generation instruments.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
So there's something fairly humorous going on with my metronome. If I set a low metronome volume, every time I switch to pianist/sound mode or to favorites, the metronome volume creeps up a little, until it's eventually back at full volume. Does this happen to anyone else?

There is some strangeness in the UI communication that might be related.

When becoming alive, the conversation goes like this:
  • UI: Hi, I'm here.
  • MB: Hi, my settings are: [lots of unrelated settings], metronome volume = 2, [more unrelated settings]
  • UI: Set your metronome volume = 2, and set your metronome volume = 2
which looks as if the UI is trying to compensate for some memory loss the MB is suffering from.

There is, however, no such repetition in the otherwise similar conversation when switching screens (pianist/sound mode, etc.).

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