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I talked to lot of people on this forum ,and i often get the impression that people tend not to favor an acoustic upright.

Instead people favor something like a kawai /yamaha digital only hybrid like a nv10 or nu1x, because of the action , but costs about an acoustic upright if not more, and they'll say they'lll get a grand when they can afford it.

This boggles my mind, as i only had digital pianos (non hybrid) but i would take an acoustic upright over a say nv10 if i had the money, because i have real soundboard and real strings real resonances

Usually the argument is upright action limitations, but how much repertoire is there where you really need to have a grand action. I've been into pianos for 12 years and play , as well as watch countless hours of advanced players on youtube, and very little music appears to be the case i'd need a grand action to get the job done!


Not to mention digital sounds get outdated real fast! Though you could get vst, but then you have to deal with vst never being optimized as internal sounds and miss out the vibrations if you use external monitors!

Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?

Last edited by Jitin; 03/10/19 05:32 PM.

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Simple - headphones, recording, volume control. Okay, you’re right. It is because of the volume issues. But that is the main reason for most people I expect.

Last edited by TomLC; 03/10/19 05:40 PM.


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If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.



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Originally Posted by TomLC
Simple - headphones, recording, volume control. Okay, you’re right. It is because of the volume issues. But that is the main reason for most people I expect.

Originally Posted by TomLC
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.


Maybe i should clarify, these people are not avoiding uprights because of volume issues, they can't afford a real grand so they get a hybrid, like nv10 of yamaha n1x, but dont consider a good upright which similarly priced like the hybrids i mentioned


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Originally Posted by Jitin
Originally Posted by TomLC
Simple - headphones, recording, volume control. Okay, you’re right. It is because of the volume issues. But that is the main reason for most people I expect.

Originally Posted by TomLC
If noise was not an issue, I would get a baby grand in a heartbeat vs. a upright.


Maybe i should clarify, these people are not avoiding uprights because of volume issues, they can't afford a real grand so they get a hybrid, like nv10 of yamaha n1x, but dont consider a good upright which similarly priced like the hybrids i mentioned

The action on grand usually allow faster repetitions than the one on an upright due to the double escapement mechanism although this limitation can be partially mitigated using springs and other mechanisms (check the Feurich model 123, for example). The action also feels different since an upright relies on springs whereas a grand relies mostly on gravity. And you need a quite expensive (and tall) upright to get good sound out of it. You also need to factor in the recurring tuning and regulation costs that are not applicable to an hybrid. So, an hybrid like the n1x or nv10 is usually a better proposition than an upright.

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If it's not the headphone issue, it may still be a cost issue. As I understood it when I was in the market for a digital, a Kawai MP11SE was a top of the line digital for about $2,700. For $2,700, however, you couldn't get a decent upright.

Now if you're talking a cabinet digital like a Kawai CA98, then if it wasn't for the headphones/internal recording capability, then I agree an acoustic upright would make more sense for about the same amount of money. So I'm with you. If noise isn't an issue, I'd get an acoustic upright over a digital any day.


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I would certainly get an acoustic if I had the space downstairs and could play silently. But neither is possible. As for the speed of the action, that is not really a limiting factor for most people, more a matter of technique, assuming a properly regulated acoustic whilst actions like my on my Roland LX7 are perfectly adequate.


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I would say that noise and space would be the main reasons that someone would favour the hybrids over an acoustic upright, and not really the difference in action. Although most people say the grand action has faster repetition, and they are right, most people don't play to that high a level where the upright action is the limiting factor. Even then, not many advanced repertoire require that kind of repetition.

People also say a grand piano action is different from an upright action and helps to build technique. But you could say that about almost any two different pianos, upright or grand, double escapement notwithstanding.

I'm not really convinced that a grand action is essential to building good technique. Lots of professional pianists learnt on an upright and turned out fine.


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Jitin, maybe its the high end pianist that want grands.
Quote
The action on grand usually allow faster repetitions than the one on an upright
How many people can play this well to notice a difference.

I would think for the majority of people a quality upright is enough of a piano. Piano is a hobby for me, so I would not do a grand piano justice. I purchased a new piano 4 years ago, this was going to be my life time piano. I ended up with a Yamaha YUS 5. I also have a Clavinova CLP 575, I use headphones so my husband can have some peace. As I advanced I could really tell the difference between the digital and the schools acoustic. As for maintenance issues, other than tuning every other month, I have not had to have anything else done. Yamaha has a 10 year warranty on new acoustic pianos, so I am not too worried about repairs.

Baby grands were less than I paid for the YUS 5. The store owner said, some baby grands are just really furniture. He suggested a quality upright would be better sounding than a low end baby grand. I do not regret my selection. If a person was going to move a lot or lived in an apartment not the ground floor, it would be difficult to move an upright. My digital weighs less than 175 pounds, the acoustic is a about 510.


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Originally Posted by chronos1701

People also say a grand piano action is different from an upright action and helps to build technique. But you could say that about almost any two different pianos, upright or grand, double escapement notwithstanding.

I'm not really convinced that a grand action is essential to building good technique. Lots of professional pianists learnt on an upright and turned out fine.

Agreed!


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Originally Posted by chronos1701
I would say that noise and space would be the main reasons that someone would favour the hybrids over an acoustic upright, and not really the difference in action. Although most people say the grand action has faster repetition, and they are right, most people don't play to that high a level where the upright action is the limiting factor. Even then, not many advanced repertoire require that kind of repetition.

People also say a grand piano action is different from an upright action and helps to build technique. But you could say that about almost any two different pianos, upright or grand, double escapement notwithstanding.

I'm not really convinced that a grand action is essential to building good technique. Lots of professional pianists learnt on an upright and turned out fine.

As I pointed out elsewhere, Chopin played on an upright when he gave lessons, and on a single-action grand elsewhere.


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A good upright is better than an aging grand where problems start happening.
A good upright is better than a digital .
A bad upright which is aging is not as good as a good digital .
A bad upright takes up less room than a bad grand and is easier to live with .
What is good?

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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
I would certainly get an acoustic if I had the space downstairs and could play silently. But neither is possible. As for the speed of the action, that is not really a limiting factor for most people, more a matter of technique, assuming a properly regulated acoustic whilst actions like my on my Roland LX7 are perfectly adequate.

I don't think you can count your LX7 in the upright class. Although it is a simulated action, it is simulating a grand, not an upright, for example in it handling of fast repetition, etc.


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Just to add fuel to the fire, I know many here don't read the posts over in the PW digital forum so I am carrying over here a post from there.

A long-time PW forum member who had attended the conservatory for piano performance has made the rather astounding claim that the Kawai Novus NV10 and the Yamaha Avantgrand hybrids already now play better than all except a handful of the most well-maintained and well-regulated acoustical grand pianos for the discerning professional pianist. He explains his position and reviews his credentials in the first post of that thread.

Note he is comparing these top hybrid digitals not to an acoustical upright, but grands, so his position vis-a-vis uprights can already be supposed. Later in the thread, he clarifies that with respect to digitals and his acoustical grand comparison, he is only including the Kawai NV10 and the Yamaha N1, 2, 3 line, and not all digitals.

If you disagree with his viewpoint and assessment, you might want to also post your objection to his original thread I linked above, so he himself can address any points raised.


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The main reason I favor a grand is because they are much more comfortable to play regardless of the music. My hand shape is such that I end up playing a lot between the black keys close the fallboard. The grands also tend to be a lot more responsive in touch and have better dynamic control. Also I do not like the way uprights project the sound when I play them. So the repetition speed is not the only difference.

As for the digitals, they have their use but could never replace the acoustics for me because of the sound properties. I think a big part of learning to play is to learn to adjust to the changes in the sound of the pianos you play. With a digital it's easy to forget this and stop listening to what is happening because it always stays the same. And yes, I do have a Roland where I can tweak the sound a lot, but that is not how I want to use my time...

Last edited by outo; 03/11/19 12:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jitin
... Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?

A good digital could be a superior piano to a poor (or old and badly maintained) upright, but a good upright will be better as a piano than any digital. That's not taking into account things like silent operation, recording etc.

Similarly, a good upright is better than a poor grand. When, in 1977, I bought my YAMAHA UX - top of the line upright, I was offered a YAMAHA G1 baby grand - I went and tried one out - very disappointing, the UX was far superior.

Move up the scale - a top of the line Schimmel, Seiler, Grotrian, Petrof (or similar) upright would likely be a better piano than an entry level 6' grand.


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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano
but a good upright will be better as a piano than any digital. That's not taking into account things like silent operation, recording etc.

Yes, well the claim made here is not about "any digital" but specifically about 4 hybrid digitals, NV10, N1, N2, and N3 being better than all except the finest grands.


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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I don't think you can count your LX7 in the upright class. Although it is a simulated action, it is simulating a grand, not an upright, for example in it handling of fast repetition, etc.

I don't think you can count the LX7 as a grand! And I think you will find it is the LX706/8 that attempts to simulate a grand. Still doesn't put them in the grand class.


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Originally Posted by Colin Miles

I don't think you can count the LX7 as a grand! And I think you will find it is the LX706/8 that attempts to simulate a grand. Still doesn't put them in the grand class.


For me it's close enough. I have no trouble going between the PH50 action of my FP90 and a grand. The most important thing for me is the responsiveness, which is very grand-like. Some days I decide I want an NV-10 or AvantGrand, but mostly I feel like it wouldn't really be an advantage at all. I would like the bass to be heavier though. I'm considering performing surgery on it...

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A lot of it comes down to good sales and bad uprights. A good upright (doesn't need to be super special with magnetic accelerated action and so on) is most of the time more than good enough for most music for most people. People often tell me that their digital plays so much better than any upright. In that case I take them to a store that has the top of the line digitals and my upright (and some other good uprights). In the end they agree that, yes the digitals are very good, but also the good upright just feels and sounds better. In the very specific niches like crazy fast repetition (that most people cannot even accomplish when requested to do as an exercize let alone when playing music on their own level) the digital might have an edge but in general its just a lot of good sales to hide artificial sound through at best mediocre speakers. Now there's a lot of bad uprights or badly maintained uprights that give uprights a bad name.

Last edited by WimPiano; 03/11/19 05:08 AM.
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