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Originally Posted by docpaddock
Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello docpaddock, welcome to the forum, and thank you for sharing your initial thoughts on the CA58.

Regarding this point:

Originally Posted by docpaddock
But I do wish it had more bass, not for the piano, but for when I play music through the line in. The bass for playing back recorded music just isn't there. The music sounds thin. But for pure piano sound the bass sounds good.


It might be worth trying the "Tone Control" setting to adjust the instrument's speaker EQ. I believe the Line In sound should be processed by this setting, providing the ability to boost lower range frequencies using one of the presets, or by adjusting the User EQ.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


I tried adjusting the EQ, but it wasn't giving me enough. But I didn't buy the CA58 to be a high fidelity stereo. I bought it to be a realistic piano experience. It succeeds at doing this. So while I wish there was more bass, it doesn't fail in it's primary objective.


You can adjust the line-out volume on the CA58 (this feature is not available on CA78/98). This means you can easily connect the CA58 to an external subwoofer to increase the bass response. You can also consider an additional soundbar or monitoring speakers. The soundbar is the simplest option and be placed behind the music rest. If you plan to play your CA58 mostly without headphones this would be a rather small investment that would increase the sound quality.

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I know everyone here has the best intentions in making recommendations. That said, encouraging someone to "save up" to jump levels over the original budget is unrealistic. I've seen this in many threads be it pianos or headphones. Kindly try to keep in mind the preferences of the poster. I know what I'm comfortable spending and it looks like I can get a CA58 or CLP-645 for less than $3,000 (all in) which is what works for me. I will test out a friend's 645 tomorrow and hopefully by this weekend I'll order a new piano.

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bambooninja, I have a CA-58, since 3/4 year, and are overall happy with it. I have been learning the piano only since a year and a half though, and I am not good enough (yet ! :-) ) to properly evaluate it and compare it to other instruments. I mostly use Pianoteq and Embertone Walker for sound, but must say that the CA-58 samples are also good. I had so far no problems with the instrument, but lately I do notice slightly more resistance at some keys, as in the video that slobajudge linked. I think it may be linked to the escapement simulation. I may be that this was the case from the start, and that I notice these slight differences better now. Don't know. I am also not sure what is 'normal'. My mother has a Schimmel grand piano that is 10-20 x as expensive as the CA-58, and I also notice some differences between keys when I play it. I think the CA-58 is a very nice instrument for the price. If you want to go for it, you may first want to try chromatic scales on it like the piano teacher in the video. Potential key difference may be too subtle to notice with chords. Let us know what you find.

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A very good point. You should only spend what you can afford.
Originally Posted by bambooninja
That said, encouraging someone to "save up" to jump levels over the original budget is unrealistic. I've seen this in many threads be it pianos or headphones. Kindly try to keep in mind the preferences of the poster. I know what I'm comfortable spending and it looks like I can get a CA58 or CLP-645 for less than $3,000 (all in) which is what works for me.

Note that others have purchased the more expensive CA78 for around $3000. Here are the listings from the Prices Paid thread:
Code
Dec-2017 . . . $4500
Jan-2018 . . . $2850
Mar-2018 . . . $3956
Aug-2018 . . . $3250
Jan-2019 . . . $3380
Jan-2019 . . . $3300
If someone can get it for $2850, so can you or I. (I'm thinking about the CA78 myself.)

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I was looking at the CA78 and was offered $4100CAD for a demo model with all taxes and shipping included. That's about 3100USD with taxes or 2750USD before taxes. A brand new CA78 would cost me about $3100 USD before taxes where I live. That's a $900 discount from the officially quoted retail price. And I didn't even try to bargain too much. I doubt that you can get that much of a discount on the CA58.



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When I searched the prices paid list, the best I saw for a CA78 was $3300 in my country (I think the $2850 is a typo based on the original thread). If that's before tax, then it's out of the question for me as I have to add ~9% tax. So if 65% of U.S. list for CA78 ($3250) is the best price I can get, then it's too much. All in, that's over $700 more than what I'd pay for a CA58 (which is already $500 over my budget). From the specs, I completely understand stepping up to get more current technology, but it's a lot given the degree to which I expect the piano to be used. I don't see use of the MIDI, extra voices, etc. unless one of my kids has hidden musical talents. And weirdly, I have to admit I'm not sure I like the touch screen as it's distracting when lit, go figure.

I did test the CLP-645 today. As someone who is getting back to playing regularly and may not have good finger strength yet, I found my fingers got a bit tired after playing for 20 min. I assume it's simply a matter of getting used to the key action but I was surprised at how stiff it felt for me compared to playing the Kawais. frown If I purely went on how it felt today, I would not want the CLP.

Last edited by bambooninja; 02/06/19 05:16 PM.
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So here's another question... for kids that practice on a digital but play with a teacher on an upright, is it better to have a lighter touch like a Kawai or the heavier feel of the CLP? On the surface, one could argue it's better to have the strength to play something stiffer and adjust down to the acoustic rather than the other way. Is there a thread that already discussed this?

Last edited by bambooninja; 02/06/19 05:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by bambooninja
So here's another question... for kids that practice on a digital but play with a teacher on an upright, is it better to have a lighter touch like a Kawai or the heavier feel of the CLP? On the surface, one could argue it's better to have the strength to play something stiffer and adjust down to the acoustic rather than the other way. Is there a thread that already discussed this?


I don't think that is an easy question to answer. For me the CLP645 is not heavy. But the CLP675 was heavy to me. I'm also older and I would rather have a lighter touch. That is why on the board here it is advised to try out several different brand and in brand several models. Plus I have played uprights that have been light touch to heavy touch. So best to play on as many different pianos as you can.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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Thanks Pianogabe. I did happen to play chromatic scales as part of my time with the Kawais. Nothing stood out as a problem that I can recall, but I hadn't seen the video at the time to listen for anything specific on test piano and forte play more. Some of these issues are too subtle for me to pick up on until I play for many more months.

EPW, I too like a lighter feel but I simply don't want to go so light it confuses my kids' learning. I will only be playing the DP so I won't know any better over time. I figure there's no perfect answer but curious if anyone with kids has observations.

Last edited by bambooninja; 02/06/19 07:46 PM.
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I bet that the CA58 will be perfect for you without breaking the bank beyond your budget. I just went through the product comparison between the CA58 and CA78, and there just doesn’t seem be a huge difference between the two. As an owner of a CA78, I do however like the ebony polish finish. I minimally use the alternate voices, but when I do, they sound great. So I don’t know how much I can really tell beteeen the Pianist and Sound modes.

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Remember that the price is not the price. The dealer's price is a his "ask". Your price is an "offer". The final price is ... whatever you can mutually agree upon.
So if I saw this in my country ...
Originally Posted by bambooninja
... the best I saw for a CA78 was $3300 in my country
... I would recognize that the severely limited data means that $3300 is NOT really the lowest price. I would not be deterred by someone else's $3300 price paid. I'd offer less.

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Mac,
I admire your strong determination to get the best price. Thankfully the piano buying process feels much less painful than mattress and car negotiating.

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Bambooninja, re. your question about lighter vs. heavier actions and ease of moving to an acoustic piano:

I felt that NWX was the lightest action in Yamaha's Clavinova line; the less-expensive GH3X and more-expensive GrandTouch actions felt heavier.

As you know, I have not tried the Kawai GF-C action on the CA58. But the lovely GF II action on the CA78 felt lighter than NWX. If GF-C is lighter than GF II, it must be very light indeed!

Conventional wisdom holds that it is easier to move from a heavier action to a lighter one than the other way around. I believe that one always takes a few minutes to adapt, and that adapting to different actions is a useful skill to learn. As a child, many decades ago, I played a variety of pianos at home, at my teacher's, at recitals, and at exams. And was expected to adapt quickly, without fuss.

(Though my piano teacher was kind enough to rent for an hour the exact piano on which upper-level exams were performed, and each of us got *10 minutes* on it a few days in advance to get a feel for it.)

Perhaps this is why I loved both the heavy GrandTouch action on the Yamaha CLP-685 and the light Grand Feel II action on the Kawai CA78. The former was firm and precise, the latter light and smooth. Different but good.

So now that you've tried both the CLP-645 and the CA58, just go with what feels best *to you*. You can't go wrong between the two. Good luck!

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Not particularly relevant for Bambooninja, but for others reading this thread:

It was not quite accurate of me to use the word "heavy" to describe Yamaha's GrandTouch action. When I first played it, the initial touch felt heavy. But after a while, I ceased to notice that and appreciated that its longer pivot length meant an even touch wherever played, close to the fallboard or not. That is what contributed to the feeling of precision. Its counterweights may also have helped lighten the touch.

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I agree with Lotus and comments I've read in other threads that adjusting to the "weight" of the action is mostly a matter of time. When I played the CLP-645 I tripped up on my keys for the first 10 minutes but I'd say by the end of 20 minutes my play noticeably improved. My fingers needed time to adjust from being used to practicing on my 30+ year-old Clavinova which has a light touch in comparison.

I played the CA48, CA58, and CA78 (though for less time). While I noticed some difference in feel of the CA78 action, I would not call it a significant difference on the surface. They were all pleasant and light. Perhaps if I had tested a more thorough variation in pressure and placement there would have been more differences to note.

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I've played on Steinway model D's (I'm not rich, I just went into Steinway Hall when visiting London) and they felt considerably lighter than the CLP 685 for me. It just feels unnaturally heavy to any piano I've played. Some really old cheap uprights from school maybe...

Last edited by InspiredByKawai; 04/13/20 06:33 AM.
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