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#2752339 07/18/18 09:22 AM
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We found this in Putt Crowl's papers.

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/galleries/2752336.html

The price of computer time is surprising. Does anybody remember them, or know what became of their work?

Be well,
Craig


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I don't remember meeting them, but I do remember meeting Putt a few times in the mid 70's. What a gentleman he was.

Will Truitt


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I have Donelson's book "Piano Rebuilders' Handbook of Treble String Tensions" which was published in 1977. It had tension and inharmonicity tables for various string-length/pitch scenarios. It was just a printout of output from a mainframe computer he had rented time on. At the time, it was the "latest and greatest" tool for people doing string/soundboard/bridge work.


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When taking a piano technology course in junior college around 1972 I wrote a plain steel wire scaling program in fortran using the schools computer. It was an equal tension scale - the concept of inharmonicity never came up in that class.


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Keith,
Oh, of course. We have that book as well. It isn't one of the ones one pulls down for casual browsing.
I can see its value in the era before the PC and its spreadsheets, though. A venerable tome.

Will,
I met Putt a few times when we used to host the WMass chapter in the late 80s. He was indeed a gentleman and unfailingly encouraging. We got some of his papers after his passing; from the treebelt.

Be well,
Craig


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I used to have Donelson's book also. Now I have Arno Patin's Abacus Excel spreadsheet for scaling with Paulello hybrid wire. It calculates tension, inharmonicity, loudness, and practical breaking load percentage. Others have written scaling programs and spreadsheets, and such things nowadays are almost ho-hum - yet they are far more powerful and useful than what those guys had in the early days.

We are a better educated group of technicians these days, but we stand on the shoulders of those restless souls who went before us.

Will


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Will,
Used to have? I can't part with any book; I still have Reblitz. Someday I hope to have Clinkscale.

Are you familiar with Jean Louchet's "The Keyboard Stringing Guide"? It is another one of those technical books that swears that it goes easy on the mathematics and then gives you page after page of formulas and variations thereon.

One interesting notion he posits is a connection between the Young's modulus of a wire and the vocal, vowel like character of a given note. This seems central to hybrid scaling theory.

Craig


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Now that's very interesting.

Pwg


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Craig,
Is the Louchet book in English? When was it published? I am very interested in the use of the vowel descriptions as I use them in my model of Musically Intelligible Sound.


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Originally Posted by Craig Hair


One interesting notion he posits is a connection between the Young's modulus of a wire and the vocal, vowel like character of a given note. This seems central to hybrid scaling theory.



Youngs modulus does not change substantially with different sorts of steel. "Vowel" in plain strings is mainly affected by Youngs modulus, not by changes from different breaking strengths by different types of steel (hybrid scaling). With wrapped strings, there are much more possibilities to change the "vocal" character of a note.

These vocal changes can be simulated (audio output) for example with the Mensurix scaling program which i have introduced in 2004.

Here are the links for a free demo version of the Mensurix Software, where you can try string simulations on the A-notes (correct audio output requires native XP system. I hope i can upgrade in the near future for actual operating systems):

http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/Mensurix5.0.17EU18.zip
a separate online help file is here:
http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/Mensurix_5_Help_E.chm

regards,

Bernhard Stopper

Last edited by Bernhard Stopper; 07/19/18 11:36 AM.
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Bernhard,

Perhaps this is why I liked the Puresound SS wire so much. It's modulus was different from all the others (I think...please correct as needed).

Pwg


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Hi Peter,

you are correct, Puresound is about 10% lower with youngs modulus compared to other string steel types.

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Thank you for the interesting thread.

Please will someone explain when and why it would be better to use Puresound steel wire on a piano rather than Roslau and vice versa?

Thank you.


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Originally Posted by Mark Davis
Thank you for the interesting thread.

Please will someone explain when and why it would be better to use Puresound steel wire on a piano rather than Roslau and vice versa?

Thank you.


My "when and why" are likely quite different that others but here is my idea:
I have purchased some Pure Sound wire of appropriate sizes for the purpose of helping to resolve a scaling issue that I do not care for that happens on many pianos.
The lo-tenor bridge/string lengths are shortened on the lowest few notes and this lowers tension and increases inharmonicity and can create tone and power issues when trying to blend same with the wound bass wires below and the plain steel wires above that remain in a more reasonable tension inharmonicity range.
The Pure Sound wire with the different modulus I intended to install in this lo-tenor area with the hope of resolving this issue.
When doing a rebuild I usually would like to change this lo tenor bridge or install an auxiliary bridge so that I could install wound bichords and get rid of the plain steel trichords but many times the winding on these shorter wire lengths need to be so thin that the string maker wont make them.
So leaving the bridge unmodified and installing Pure Sound was my hope of making a better transition between upper bass and lo tenor at the break.
Hove not had a chance to use it yet but I will as soon as opportunity presents itself.
Love to hear what others use it for.
Has any string makers used it for core wire on bass strings?

Last edited by Gene Nelson; 07/24/18 11:23 AM.

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Thanks Gene.

Do you know what tension steel the American and German manufacturers were using in the period 1900 to 1930's, high or low for the scaling?

Does it vary from one manufacturer to another, and or from one piano to another and what determines whether a piano scale should be high or low tensioned?

Last edited by Mark Davis; 07/24/18 02:14 PM.

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Tensions on old scales were all over the map. Some of them still are.


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Originally Posted by Mark Davis
Thanks Gene.

Do you know what tension steel the American and German manufacturers were using in the period 1900 to 1930's, high or low for the scaling?

Does it vary from one manufacturer to another, and or from one piano to another and what determines whether a piano scale should be high or low tensioned?


I think the piano builders/designers of that era used what sounded good, however, reading through the book "piano tone building" which was a record of dialogue at a conference of piano builders/designers around 1916 - there was talk about equal tension scales but I did not see any info about how it was calculated or about the nature of the steel wire, maybe I missed it.
There was also information about calculating the down force of string bearing on the bridge/soundboard assembly and this had everything to do with string tension, bearing angle and string length, so if they were calculating bearing forces, they must have had some information about steel wire and scaling design. In the calculation example given they used 160 pounds for a tension number. Thats a reasonably typical number.
Maybe some piano manufacturers were better at this than others.

Last edited by Gene Nelson; 07/24/18 06:06 PM.

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I think the purer tone of the Stainless wire is because the Longitudinal modes are weaker. The same is true I think for the "softer" high carbon alloys of PaulelloI type O, 1 and 2 wires.

I treat the stainless wire like it is about 20% weaker than fully modern wire. Thus I don't place it at greater than about 35% the break point for modern wire.

I think stainless would be very poor for core wire unless it was hex core. The swaging would weaken the quite brittle wire. When you install stainless wire you must avoid over bending or forcing it. I have some in service for over ten years with no failure yet, but I doubt you could get that performance if you over-bend it when installing.

Last edited by Ed McMorrow, RPT; 07/24/18 11:22 PM. Reason: typo

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Gene, I think Ed has given you some good information about the Pure Sound wire, I will add some comments about hybrid scaling that address a couple of your questions.

I typically use Paulello type 1 wire as I approach the break to wound strings, whether wound strings on the treble bridge or on the bass bridge. It is my experience over a number of pianos that it can be a very effective blend to wound strings and evenness of tonal character most of the time. There will still be circumstances where the transition to a wound bi or trichord is the best solution. I favor the plain wire solution wherever possible. Further, on small grands I have reduced the diameter along with the type 1 wire to very good effect where the designer's original choices had been to use a very thick diameter wire.

I always use Paulello wire in my bass string cores.. Bichords are mostly Type M although Type O sometimes in the lower bichords. The monochords are usually partially or wholly Type O.

There are circumstances where Type 1 cores will be the best substitute (smaller grands). Type XM has also been used in the bichords, although I have not done that.

It is nice to see your budding interest in hybrid scaling. There is a whole new world of string scaling now available to you. After having used the wire for the past 7 years or so, I am continually surprised at the flexibility and power of this addition to our scaling repertoire. It has upped my game, and I think it does that for everybody.

You will want to use scaling software designed for hybrid wire for targeted precision in your scaling.

Will Truitt


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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
Gene, I think Ed has given you some good information about the Pure Sound wire, I will add some comments about hybrid scaling that address a couple of your questions.

I typically use Paulello type 1 wire as I approach the break to wound strings, whether wound strings on the treble bridge or on the bass bridge. It is my experience over a number of pianos that it can be a very effective blend to wound strings and evenness of tonal character most of the time. There will still be circumstances where the transition to a wound bi or trichord is the best solution. I favor the plain wire solution wherever possible. Further, on small grands I have reduced the diameter along with the type 1 wire to very good effect where the designer's original choices had been to use a very thick diameter wire.

I always use Paulello wire in my bass string cores.. Bichords are mostly Type M although Type O sometimes in the lower bichords. The monochords are usually partially or wholly Type O.

There are circumstances where Type 1 cores will be the best substitute (smaller grands). Type XM has also been used in the bichords, although I have not done that.

It is nice to see your budding interest in hybrid scaling. There is a whole new world of string scaling now available to you. After having used the wire for the past 7 years or so, I am continually surprised at the flexibility and power of this addition to our scaling repertoire. It has upped my game, and I think it does that for everybody.

You will want to use scaling software designed for hybrid wire for targeted precision in your scaling.

Will Truitt


Thank you for this information.
What scaling program do you recommend ?
I have always used Tremaine Parson's P-Scale - its always worked out well enough.
It would probably be a good idea to make up my own one day on spread sheet, that way I can have the option to alter the calculations based on different wire species.


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