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Hello all, first post
Made an account a while back when I was getting my hands wet in the dp business, now I'm looking to upgrade. Noticed that the grandtouch action is hella stiff in real life, so I did some research. No one had known what the grandtouch looked like irl, many speculating that it was just a lengthened nwx action. ALAS! Here we are:

https://post.smzdm.com/p/672119/

Not my pics btw. Did i mention that the keys look flimsy as heck?

Edit: Am I seeing things? Could they really be this thin??? reminiscient of the beast we call GHS lmao

Also, according to the guy the black keys are in fact hollow



Last edited by BucketNerlens; 05/06/18 11:46 AM.
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I agree that does look flimsy


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Well, they are not supposed to move sideways and I suppose there are some sort of stabilizing pins or a similar mechanism to prevent that.

So why waste plastic.

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Well i wish Yamaha could give me a CLP that actually worth their price tag, they used to create some beast, with superb sample and key in their era, like the CLP-990, and now all of their premium action just based on the very old GH/GH3 (the Avantgrands are in different league), they just add almost non-exist let-off, a counter-weight, a wooden side and some thin plastic for the extended pivot and voila: brandnew "Grandtouch" and NWX action, the NWX to my view are just GH3X with piece of wood on the side, and their static weight are kinda heavy to my taste. The CFX tone are lovely but personally I don't like those stretched sample of Yamaha. Clearly they should give us something better with their price tag, a CA65/67 with Garritan CFX are much better
Bonus a pic of Yamaha NWX, it's just GH3 action, really
[Linked Image]


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The feeling of NWX is far different from GH3X. (And far better). How Yamaha did improve the action is secondary.

However, it is difficult to know from the photo if there are only wooden sides or if the wooden part is a main part of then key and there are some plastic around this part.

On this photo https://am.zdmimg.com/201803/21/5ab20bf5665c35266.jpg_e600.jpg there seem to be some wood around the counterweight : there should be more wood than just sides.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 05/06/18 12:03 PM.

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Thanks for the link. So, the wooden GrandTouch keys seem to use less wood than the PHA-50 :-) Roland at least describes the action as it really is, a plastic action with a wood layer. The GrandTouch is described in the official website as having the “longest support length used on any digital piano”. And they do look very flimsy.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The feeling of NWX is far different from GH3X. (And far better). How Yamaha did improve the action is secondary.

However, it is difficult to know from the photo if there are only wooden sides or if the wooden part is a main part of then key and there are some plastic around this part.

On this photo https://am.zdmimg.com/201803/21/5ab20bf5665c35266.jpg_e600.jpg there seem to be some wood around the counterweight : there should be more wood than just sides.


Picture 33 shows the key from underneath and it is clear the key is entirely plastic with just a thin layer of wood on each side.
https://post.smzdm.com/p/672119/pic_33/

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If anything the pivot length is pretty long. At least a bit longer than the pha50

Last edited by BucketNerlens; 05/06/18 12:40 PM.
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I commented just several days ago of not knowing the new GrandTouch action, then here we are, with all these teardown photos!

A few observations:
1. Pivot is now a plastic joint that bends. Not sure I like the new design but this part is replaceable, so maintenance will be easy.
2. Pivot point of the black keys is offset backward relative to the white keys. This is definitely a good thing, most manufacturers don't even do this for their folded actions.
3. Extrapolating from the photos, Yamaha's claim is valid: GrandTouch in fact has the longest pivot length in a DP, at 24.8cm.
4. It is longer than my favor PHA50 at 22cm and dethroned GF2's 24.1cm.

Thanks for the post! Now I just need to find a store to test one ... if I will like its heavier key weight that many have found.

Last edited by WarrenY; 05/06/18 02:18 PM.

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If these new keys are indeed flimsy ...
Originally Posted by WarrenY
Pivot is now a plastic joint that bends. Not sure I like the new design but this part is replaceable, so maintenance will be easy.
... then maintenance might be easy, but consider the cost.

The GH-series keys, in use by Yamaha on nearly all their mid- and upper-range pianos for the last twenty years, cost $20 EACH for the white keys.

Easy to fix, perhaps. But not so easy on the wallet.

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Originally Posted by WarrenY
I commented just several days ago of not knowing the new GrandTouch action, then here we are, with all these teardown photos!

A few observations:
1. Pivot is now a plastic joint that bends. Not sure I like the new design but this part is replaceable, so maintenance will be easy.
2. Pivot point of the black keys is offset backward relative to the white keys. This is definitely a good thing, most manufacturers don't even do this for their folded actions.
3. Extrapolating from the photos, Yamaha's claim is valid: GrandTouch in fact has the longest pivot length in a DP, at 24.8cm.
4. It is longer than my favor PHA50 at 22cm and dethroned GF2's 24.1cm.

Thanks for the post! Now I just need to find a store to test one ... if I will like its heavier key weight that many have found.


Not sure how you got that number for the pivot. It seems to be around 22-24 cm depending on what you use as scale factor (15 cm for a white key or 9 cm for a black key). And this is assuming that bendable plastic joint is indeed the pivot and not just a pin to keep the key in place while the pivot is another sturdy point under the body of the key.

[Linked Image]

Regardless of the pivot point location, the PHA-50 is lighter to play on the back of the keys and the GF2 even lighter. Just try them side by side. But if you like an heavy action during the first very part of the movement that then becomes light all of a sudden then the CLP-685 may be the DP for you.

It is a pity that the CLP-685 owner user was unable to take photos of the sensors and "hammer" mechanism during the repair procedure...


Last edited by arc7urus; 05/06/18 04:48 PM. Reason: image link
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Thanks for posting the link.

Pivot length does look impressive.

But, everything else - not my cup of team. This partly explains why I felt the CLP-685 action as "weird" - too stiff when you try to press the key and then suddenly too light afterwords.

Osho


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I would suggest that the pivoting plastic flexi-keys were pioneered under the GHS series, which changed somewhat over the years into the reliable action it is now. I often wondered how cheap it'd be to just increase the length of that into something acceptable.
Answer - probably very little, but the rewards from so doing . . . .$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
They know their business!
They could further improvise this principle on their motorbikes, and do away with the steering head altogether, bearings and all. And it would have a built in damper unit.
Another innovative moneymaking scheme for somebody . . .


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I assumed this thread referred to a GranTouch action.


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@arc7urus - do you understand what pivot length is? and what we are talking here?

It is not a range. It is about the endpoint, the point where pivoting happens ... because Moment = Force X Distance.

[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by WarrenY
@arc7urus - do you understand what pivot length is? and what we are talking here?

It is not a range. It is about the endpoint, the point where pivoting happens ... because Moment = Force X Distance.


With all due respect, have you actually read or understood my post? I used two factors to try determining the scale of the picture: the white key length and the black key length. If we use the white key length as a reference the pivot point would be located at ca. 24 cm and if we use the black key lenght it would be at ca. 22 cm. So, unless you have an exact measurement that you could kindly share with us to calculate the scale factor, what we have is an approximate value for the fulcrum between 22 and 24 cm. Besides that, I am not sure how discussing the concept of torque/moment/mechanical advantage will help us determining the key length and where the fulcrum is.

Moreover, if you looked closely at the photos posted by the 685 owner, you would have noticed that it seems that the pivot point is not the one you described with the green arrow but the other plastic notch at its left, i.e. the one I have used for my calculations.

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That's what I thought ... GranTouch, not GrandTouch. Two different beasts, both from Yamaha, but separated by two decades' time!
Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I assumed this thread referred to a GranTouch action.

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Just so we are all on the same page. This is how the plastic joint works.

@MacMacMac
I like to believe that this plastic piece is cheap to make and replace, very much so than replacing a whole key.

@Ohso
Ideally the key weight should all come from the force need to push the (folded) hammer underneath while the force to bend this joint should be so negligible. Of course, may be it is not and therefore contribute to the "weird" feel you had. May be there is something else we haven't seen yet. I want to find out when I get a chance to test one.

@Dave Horne
This is about GrandTouch. The guy post the delivery of a new CLP685 but found one key wasn't right. So, he took it apart and posted the photos on that Chinese forum. He also complained about some cheap plastic uses on the music rest and keyboard cover hinge.

EDIT - updated picture to point out the limiter feature

[Linked Image]

Last edited by WarrenY; 05/06/18 07:51 PM.

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Originally Posted by Dave Horne
I assumed this thread referred to a GranTouch action.


Are you referring to the spelling? The action is described as GrandTouch, not GranTouch, at Yamaha’s website :-)
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/clavinova/clp-685/

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I meant Gran, not Grand.
As for Dave ... I'll leave it to him to answer for himself.
But I suspect he really meant Gran ... because there really was a Yamaha GranTouch, long before the current GrandTouch.

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