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#2712251 02/07/18 08:15 AM
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I've created this comparison if anyone is interested:

[Linked Image]

Besides the longer pivot point in GF2, there's something different though. Notice the backside of the GFC key where there's something like a white plastic covering around the key which contacts with the hammer pin which is white and round, probably plastic or rubber. Compare that to the GF2 where the hammer pins is metal and it touches the key only through a piece of felt.

I've recently compared GF2 and GF-C in a store and noticed how GF-C was a bit more realistic, meaning you feel hammer movements beneath the keys, a slightly jumpy feeling which IMO is not of any particular significance to how expressive the action is but nevertheless makes it feel a bit more realistic and closer to how a real action feels, compared to the ultra smooth GF2 where you won't feel this hammer jumpiness. I am not speaking in support of one or the other but I think the difference is prominent.

Otherwise the longer pivot point in the GF2 is a real advantage and that can be felt immediately. Besides, there's still some stiffness in GF-C which makes it feel closer to its predecessor RM3 rather than GF2. Anyway, I think GF-C is a great action, certainly better than RM3 and I would perfectly adopt it if it's being offered in a controller such as VPC.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/07/18 08:22 AM.

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I think it would be quite interesting if Kawai could offer a more "gig friendly" version of the VPC1. Maybe the GF-C action could help reduce the weight and size of the thing a little and they could also make the surface flat so that a laptop could rest safely on top of it.

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The capstan of the GF2 doesn't directly touch the felt (or whatever it is). There's a sheet of PTFE glued on top of the felt. I've recently opened my piano to check some sticky keys and I've found out that the PTFE pads are sliding off, exposing the glue... The GF-C looks better in this aspect but it seems like it can't be regulated (no capstan), which is not necessarily a bad thing.

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That's interesting. The felt/PTFE pad on the ends of the keys is definitely a weak point in the GF action. I have been through each key measuring the velocity response to a standard weight and found that factors such as the depth of indentation in the pad, and the orientation of any grain in the PTFE, or a tiny bit or dust or grease on it could cause not just differences in the velocity produced, but the speed at which the key rebounded. Particularly slow keys would not even have the characteristic oscillating bounce that you get when releasing a key. I fixed it by attaching a new layer of PTFE over the top. But if they have introduced more uniformity with a moulded section to replace this pad, that has to be a good thing.


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The change from felt to the plastic cap has been my speculation in previous threads for one of the reasons for the reported 'crisper' feel of GF-C. And yes it should avoid the wear problems that have been noted with GF1/2. I was a little suprised they didn't do a mini GF2.1 revision for the ca78/98 actually with a few fixes like that to cut down on potential warrenty costs.

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Pardon the ignorance but what is PTFE? The GF-C, though slightly more compact than the GF/GFII actions looks like a much better than any other DP action I've seen, including PHA50.

Last edited by PianoZac; 02/07/18 09:25 AM.

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PolyTetraFluoroEthylene

teflon is duponts (i think) tradename for it.

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So it’s a linked chain of 4 Flouride 2 Carbon? grin

Last edited by PianoZac; 02/07/18 10:02 AM.

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JoeT #2712277 02/07/18 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
It looks like the balance pins for the black keys are not moved further in, like real pianos, and are in line with those of the white keys instead.

This seems to be the case for both actions and is something which makes digital actions feel digital.

I think you're not right. Look at the explanation "Balance pins" and how the line forks into two. I believe the right one is for the white keys and the left one is for the black keys.

P.S. Yep, you're not right. Looked from above, it's apparent the balance pins for the black keys are further back:
[Linked Image]

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/07/18 10:23 AM.

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JoeT #2712278 02/07/18 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
[quote=CyberGene]I've created this comparison if anyone is interested:
It looks like the balance pins for the black keys are not moved further in, like real pianos, and are in line with those of the white keys instead.

This seems to be the case for both actions and is something which makes digital actions feel digital.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr-Z6eWWoZY

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This action line from kawai has had offset black pivots since RM3 grand (first one) as far as I'm aware, the older AWA ones had them all on the same pivot.

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This is the problem I'm having.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/5maPFdwvbA9rHas23

Lolatu's fix is simple but I'm wondering if it's better to replace everything with some nice felt like in the Ravenworks VPC1 or with 2-3mm thick PTFE alone. How hard is to cut a PTFE sheet of that thickness?
I also remember someone using a DVD case to mod his VPC1 but I can't find the videos anymore.

If it's possible to buy the GF-C plastic ends and fit them on the GF2, it could be the definitive fix.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Yep, you're not right. Looked from above, it's apparent the balance pins for the black keys are further back

Alright, my mistake. I deleted my post to not provoke ten other answers.


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I've opened my GF(1) keyboard a few times, and haven't noticed any PTFE slippage, although I've known about it being mentioned and have a roll of PTFE tape on hand just in case I need it laugh

In general, I've heard very positive reports about the GF-C, and if replacing the felt/PTFE/capstan with a plastic sleeve improves the feel, I'm all for it! It definitely seems more economical as well as manufacturing-friendly.

IMO, anything Kawai can do to get their full wooden key actions into more pianos is a great thing for the consumer.


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What is PTFE?

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Originally Posted by hag01
What is PTFE?

Teflon, was answered on the previous page, won't hurt to read the thread laugh


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by hag01
What is PTFE?

Teflon, was answered on the previous page, won't hurt to read the thread laugh

Link?

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http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2710686/Searchpage/1/Main/186176/Words/%2BTeflon/Search/true/re-kawai-ca48-vs-cn37-vs-decibell-vivo-h3.html#Post2710686

Do you refer to this thread?

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This video gave me a better understanding of what you guys are talking about.
He does a good job of explaining PTFE replacement and
adjusting capstans.
I think thats a CA97?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsziolVG34Y


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Originally Posted by hag01
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2710686/Searchpage/1/Main/186176/Words/%2BTeflon/Search/true/re-kawai-ca48-vs-cn37-vs-decibell-vivo-h3.html#Post2710686

Do you refer to this thread?

No, no, in this very thread, just go to page 1, somebody already asked what PTFE is and it was answered it's known also as Teflon smile


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