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We can discuss ´till the cows come home, but these two demos (even granted the limitations of internet audio and other variables) illustrate the difference between the "old" and "new" Roland piano sound pretty good:
FP-80: https://youtu.be/z-YS0dwc8ic
FP-90: https://youtu.be/y8Uz_B9_EkA
Pretty telling IMHO!

Last edited by AntoineWCaron; 12/29/17 10:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by Doug M.


For myself, I loved playing the V-piano (on some v. expensive monitors) but found the LX-7 underwhelming. However, the LX-17 that Forsyths in Manchester had set up (with lid open etc) sounded awesome. No other word for it really. Sometimes where you put a piano in a room can make quite a difference.


This was exactly our experience in the U.S. showroom and ended up purchasing the Roland LX-17.

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While playing the new Virtual sounds on the fp90, i tought the sound less accurate, however the dynamics of playing these sounds felt more like a real piano.. since then i came to the conclusion that since i care more about sound quallity then about sound accuracy, i do like the V-piano sounds (as thats what they technically are, and not SN sounds)

But when someome states, those sounds are less accurate, then i guess he is right.

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Originally Posted by AntoineWCaron
We can discuss ´till the cows come home, but these two demos (even granted the limitations of internet audio and other variables) illustrate the difference between the "old" and "new" Roland piano sound pretty good:
FP-80: https://youtu.be/z-YS0dwc8ic
FP-90: https://youtu.be/y8Uz_B9_EkA
Pretty telling IMHO!

First one sounds dull, compressed but somewhat warm/soft.
The second one sounds much clearer, a little colder and a bit distant?

Neither one is bad per se, I definitely prefer the 90. Might be the recording though.
Always hilarious trying to put sonic impressions into words. laugh


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Originally Posted by AntoineWCaron
We can discuss ´till the cows come home!

Yes I think we will have to wait for some cows, because we’ve used up all the horses to beat this topic to death.


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Greetings all!

I recently took a chance and bought a Roland RD2000 and was initially underwhelmed by the main piano tone. However, two things convinced me to keep it:

1) you can edit the piano tone to an amazing extent with the piano designer and onboard eq

2) I have loaded in expansion packs from the Axial site and now also have every piano program from RD500, RD600, RD700, RD700gx and RD700nx. Amazing variety! For cutting thru live, I actually quite like the RD600’s Concert Grand 5. For solo playing, I love the RD2000’s physical modelled “Deep Concert”.

And of course, solid design, XLR outs, sub outs, extensive top panel control and of course an incredible keyboard action makes this a top piano.

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There are two customer reviews on Thomann for RD-2000 and one of them is from a guy who loved 700NX and sold two of them to upgrade to RD-2000 only to realize how underwhelming the piano sound is and how sorry he is to “upgrade”. But I guess he could’ve downloaded the (free?) piano sounds from the previous RD pianos. It’s like Nord and that’s cool! I didn’t know that was possible. Do you have to buy some hardware for that? On my RD-700SX I could only purchase SRX expansion boards.

Yet again, replacing the well established Roland stage piano sound signature, that I loved so much for gigging with bands, with a fully modeled piano sound as a main sound was very bold and IMO stupid decision. It’s one thing promoting an expensive V-Piano to a handful of rich people that fall for modeling marketing blurb and listen to the godlike demos by George Duke, etc. And a totally different story to sell a well established RD brand to so many gigging musicians around the world who are not aware about the emperor’s new clothes but rather just listen with their ears smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 12/31/17 07:44 AM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
But I guess he could’ve downloaded the (free?) piano sounds from the previous RD pianos. It’s like Nord and that’s cool! I didn’t know that was possible. Do you have to buy some hardware for that? On my RD-700SX I could only purchase SRX expansion boards.


The RD2000 has two banks that can be loaded with Axial extensions. There are four extensions so far, three of them RD-700xx related, all of them free and they do not depend on extra hardware.


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Based on the RD-2000 sound list I assume it has got all the SuperNatural piano sounds from the RD-700NX and RD-800. They are called Concert Grand, NX Concert Grand, Studio Grand, and Brilliant Grand. Nothing like that on the FP-90, though.

https://static.roland.com/assets/media/pdf/RD-2000_Sound_List_eng01_W.pdf


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I have an FP90 and - for the main piano sound - over headphones, I find find it very pleasant to play. Perhaps it is just that I do not try to pretend it is supposed to mimic a real piano ? Which it never can or should be expected to do : it's a slab piano , meaning a stage model with build-in speakers , mainly for practicing and/or a supportive role for e.g. a choir or whatever in a small venue. Hence, I do not expect and know that it is impossible for a stereo speaker set that is also up-firing - to even pretend to sound like a real piano with it's completely dispersed sound projection, soundboard etc. Therefore I am not disappointed by what the FP can- and cannot do. If you need a more realistic piano sound - don't buy stage piano , but buy an Lx-17 or CA98 etc. What the FP90 can do however is:

1) let you tweak the piano designer settings on the main piano preset and some additional settings to tweak it to your liking - I had to tweak the factory preset as well and got a much better sound - the result was very pleasant to play.
2) use it for practicing a lot. The key-to-sound connection is very very good on the Roland pianos. The piano starts up in a second and is then ready to play and the headphone output is very good and you won't get tired after long play runs on good headphones. Also no distraction from a zillion options in my software piano's (Pianoteq, Arturia V2) , USB and Audio wiring , setups, other computer distractions. I am even happy they threw out the Rhythm Section and Accompaniment Styles as well. No need for toys like that - please.

I do agree that the sound may be a bit to clinical and when you listen to a particular note in a certain way (repeats / long decay) perhaps too artificial, but when you play a piece or practice that doesn't bother me at all , because the overall sound and specifically responsiveness of the keybed/sound combinations is very nice. Better than on the old SuperNatural piano's I owned and miles ahead of what a FP30 offers (*yes had that one too , for the kids). Speaking of dull speakers and inferior keybed - the FP30 is really not on par with an FP90 - really it isn't. I don't care about additional features - have loads of other software stuff for that - but want just one very good pianosound , a very good keybed and "some" speakers , just in case (use headphones mostly). The FP90 delivers exactly that. If I wanted the best acoustic sound in a room , I would have bought an acoustic or CA98 , so I wonder sometimes if it is really the instrument that is at fault, or that the expectations are simply too high for the purpose the particular model was build and if it is not also a matter of taste in terms of sound character.

Speakersound could be better for sure, but IMHO much could be solved with dedicated speaker EQ setting AND decreasing the stereo width (!), which is way to wide and leaves an unnatural gap in the middle. Unfortunately Roland doesn't offer settings to tweak all that. Perhaps in a software update but I don't expect that , knowing the update history of Roland in general. It usually stops after one or two bug fixes and that is that.

I almost bought an MP11/MP11se instead, but since the sound has not been updated to the new piano mode models, I just couldn't ; I can't stand the HI-XL static sound anymore after several Kawai's over the years. However, I really DO like the piano mode demo's of the new CA78/98. It's incremental, but exactly the right doses to give it much more 'air' and make it more alive and less stressful , which the HIXL sound gets after a while. Well done Kawai. Unfortunately NOT for the MP, so I would need to hookup the Software setup again. The GF keybed is a tad better than the PH50, but only marginally and both play very well. The PH50 'pushes back" a bit more and repetition from the bottom of the key on GF is also a little bit better/faster. During normal play - its doesn't make an enormous difference. Both are very good, the GF a bit better. And... no Roland I owned ever broke down, never , be it piano's or synths, or 19" racks, effects whatever. For Kawai - with all due respect to James - let's say they have really excellent service and support, so when you have trouble ; it get's solved ;-)

Sorry for the long post - but I felt I had to post something in defense of Roland, since I see a lot of Roland "Super Natural sucks" bashing going round and IMHO things are not so black and white in real live. You may even grow into a certain piano sound after a while that you may not have liked so much in the beginning , or start to be annoyed by a pianosound that thrilled you at first play. It's not all static and carved in stone and what one person may find enjoyable may be unplayable to others. We're lucky we're not all the same and that we have different brands and tastes to choose from. Now I get back to my FP since the automatic shut down ticks off - and play some more. Hope Roland will add or tweak some models in a future update and fix the speaker sound, but even when it stays as it is it is already a damn fine piano to practice on. Just my thought. Cheer J

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Originally Posted by Doug M.


It is a well known phenomena that one's basis in qualifying tone is what one likes already.


That is certainly true.

Personally, I was used to hearing very 'fat' Hammond organs on concerts and records, with a very hollow sound because of the big Leslie 122 speaker. Even though the simulation on my old 1997 - 2001 XH-200 digital Hammond organ was good, it always sounded tame. The simulation on the Nord C2D was better, especially when using the Leslie 145 setting (I really disliked their Leslie 122 setting), but it still didn't have the harshness of an original Hammond.

The very best Hammond simulation comes from... Hammond itself. The XK-3 (2004) was very good, but with a poor Leslie sim... you'd really need to hook it up to a real Leslie cabinet. The XK-3c (2007) improved greatly on this. The reason for choosing a Nord C2D is because it was MUCH cheaper in a complete two manual setup, AND it had a very good 21 stops classical organ.

So even though there are some very good emulators around since the early 2000's, there is a Hammond sound that _I_ define as being the correct one (mainly, Booker T. and the MG's, and Deep Purple), and everything else sounds 'off', even though it's not bad.

I think it's the same with piano's.

I didn't have any experience with regard to piano's, and I liked the Kawai MP7/MP11 the best when I was looking for a stage piano; a big choice at the time were the 256 sounds of the MP7 and the great drawbar organ (I was coming off of 30 years of organ playing, so cut me some slack there :p).

Now I have an LX-17...

Quote
For myself, I loved playing the V-piano (on some v. expensive monitors) but found the LX-7 underwhelming. However, the LX-17 that Forsyths in Manchester had set up (with lid open etc) sounded awesome. No other word for it really. Sometimes where you put a piano in a room can make quite a difference. Also, modelled pianos can be optimized to make them considerably more alive. Falsh has one and would be the one to talk to about setup.


When I went looking for a console/furniture piano, there were a few options I was willing to consider:

- Kawai CA-67, CS-8, CA-97 and CS-11
- Yamaha CLP-575 and CLP-585
- Roland LX-7 and LX-7.

Ending up at the LX-17 was very easy.

- A prime requisiste of the piano was that it needed to be in at least two pieces. I wouldn't be able to get a single-piece piano to were I needed it, on the second floor. This instantly dropped the CS-11 and CA-97, so I didn't even test them.

- The CA-67 and the CS-8 played great, but to my ears, sounded underpowered and a bit dull through their speaker system. Through headphones, they were both fine.

- I absolutely hated the CLP-575 and 585: both the keyboard and the sound, and I dropped both of them quite quickly.

- Then I went to the LX-7 and LX-17. Through headphones, they were both amazing, with a few quirks, especially in the second octave, and they were too bright. Playing through speakers was a big dissapointment on the LX-7. It sounded 'below the keyboard', lilke a console organ. The keyboard was good, but I liked the Kawai GF2 a bit better.

- I was unable to test the LX-17.

I liked the looks of the CS-8, so I was faced with a choice:

- Buy a piano I knew I'd like with regards to keyboard and looks, but with a bit of a muffled speaker sound
- Buy an LX-17 blindly, going by the experience through the headphones and the rave reviews online everywhere, hoping the quirks could be edited out.

I chose the LX-17.

After a year and a few months, my conclusion is:

- Out of the box, a Kawai sounds better. Roland did a poor job of setting up the initial piano's. Do yourself a favor and load one of the presets from the app or configure your own.
- The PHA-50 is very good, and it has awesome dynamic control, but trilling in the GF-2 is easier. This is a matter of taste, but I like the GF-2 keyboard a bit better.
- The LX-17 comes with 'standard resonances'; somewhere around Kawai settings. It also is brighter than Kawai's piano's.

I configured my LX-17 as such:

- Reset Concert Piano (the one with the note characters in the middle)
- Set every parameter to off or 0
- Set the piano to a volume that gives a loudness of around 85-90 dB.
- Listen to what every parameter does by going through all the settings
- Set every parameter to taste, individually, noting down the final setting; then set to off / 0
- Repeat if you noted down all parameters
- Then set all parameters according to your notes
- Adjust where necessary, as parameters influence one another
- You might need to raise or lower the volume to stay around that 85-90 dB mark.
- Remove any quirks using Tone Character and Volume level.

After doing this, you'll have a piano that sounds awesome, and I really think it can keep up with at least a midrange upright such as a Kawai K-5 or K-500. Compared to my Roland Setup (which I posted on the forum some time ago), my MP-7 now sounds "OK". It just misses the complexity the Roland can achieve with all of its interacting resonances.



Last edited by Falsch; 01/03/18 12:40 AM.

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I do not very much like the idea of judging piano sound by youtube listening, but if I am about to choose the FP90 vs FP80 winner, I vote for the old model. I just sold FP30, which I liked very much. I need more Rhodes sound, EQ, piano sound tweakability and line-outs, so I was planning to buy FP90. Now I don't know if I shouldn't go for FP80. It can be bought with really nice discounts. The problem is I am not able to try FP90 live as it is not available at my city (Roland has some problems with supplies in Europe). Can I assume that RD2000 or LX17 main piano tone will be the same as FPs on headphones? When RD800 came out I liked NX Concert Grand sample (from RD700NX) much more than 800s V-piano based.

Last edited by Qaroll; 01/26/18 04:16 AM.

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Originally Posted by Qaroll
Can I assume that RD2000 or LX17 main piano tone will be the same on headphones?


You can. But the RD also features the older supernatural sample based sounds which you already know (which are far nicer if you don't mind the exaggerated twang of them!).

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I do love the exaggerated twang! Why Roland did not include those old SNs on FP90.. I would like to have 90s upgraded speakers and keybed, but if live listening of nem samples won't change my mind, I will go for FP80. RDs are overkill in my case and I like the idea of not carrying PA to Christmas family meetings or small 'me and singer' rehearsals.


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Yes I think the run out model FP80 is quite a bargain. I've read somewhere that someone preferred the speaker set up too compared with the FP90. I watched a couple of demos yesterday on new Roland pianos, but ones which feature the older sound engine. They really do sound far nicer and more real to my ears than the newest fully modelled sounds.

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I think I would be happy with a "fully muddled" Roland. But the sample based sound has its own charm too.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Yes I think the run out model FP80 is quite a bargain. I've read somewhere that someone preferred the speaker set up too compared with the FP90. I watched a couple of demos yesterday on new Roland pianos, but ones which feature the older sound engine. They really do sound far nicer and more real to my ears than the newest fully modelled sounds.


Funnily enough about a year ago when I tried the LX17 in the PMT store near me, as mighty as the sound system may be ( at a considerable price tag ) I tried the Roland RD800 afterwards, I had no plans to, but it was there so I thought I'll I have a quick bash, It had two small monitors attached and a sub.

As soon as I played it I thought, wow, this piano sounds rather nicer in terms of tone/timbre.

I did not spend much time on it, but I believe that piano does have the older supernatural sounds too IIRC. Anyway, I liked it more than the newer sounds in the latest series, action was nice too. Such a setup could be bought at a fraction of the cost of the LX17. I thought the monitor with sub was every bit a match of the LX17 too, and then some from the player position, O' course, it doesn't look so pretty in comparison, but it all sounded clear and projected so well.


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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Funnily enough about a year ago when I tried the LX17 in the PMT store near me, as mighty as the sound system may be ( at a considerable price tag ) I tried the Roland RD800 afterwards, I had no plans to, but it was there so I thought I'll I have a quick bash, It had two small monitors attached and a sub.

As soon as I played it I thought, wow, this piano sounds rather nicer in terms of tone/timbre.

I did not spend much time on it, but I believe that piano does have the older supernatural sounds too IIRC. Anyway, I liked it more than the newer sounds in the latest series, action was nice too. Such a setup could be bought at a fraction of the cost of the LX17. I thought the monitor with sub was every bit a match of the LX17 too, and then some from the player position, O' course, it doesn't look so pretty in comparison, but it all sounded clear and projected so well.


Yes, agreed.

I do also wonder if Roland has refined the previous SN sounds a little bit. Jack Duxbury did a couple of his demos for Andertons on YouTube the other day and they were both non-fully-modelled SN variants despite being current products. They both sounded absolutely excellent. He uses plenty of dynamic variation in his playing and whilst they sounded pleasingly percussive there was none of the overly metallic twanging I associate with the original SN timbre. To my ears they sound warmer and have another somewhat more realistic dimension than the newest fully modelled Roland sounds. I do think the newer sound engine is amazingly responsive though.

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Another argument in favor of FP-80 over FP-90 is that the latter is missing the Hammond organ emulation.


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Today I've finally managed to play on RD2000. The shop was a little noisy, so even using closed-back headphones haven't isolated me fully, but still - results were surprising. Assuming that RDs piano sounds and keybed are exactly the same as in FP90, I will probably go for the latter.

I entered the shop with the plan to confirm my not linking for new Roland modeled sound, but it turned out completely the opposite. The connection between PHA50 and new sounds is just terrific. I especially liked patch 'Eastcoast Studio' (??), one of those with 'MD' badge (which I believe stands for 'modelled'). 'Concert Grand' (SN) which comes from RD800 seemed really dull and thin in comparison, but the biggest dissapointment was 'NX Concert Grand', which come from 700NX (the same as found in FP30). It was so thin, metallic and twangy, nothing as I remember from FP30. Couldn't achieve the level of dynamics of new fully modeled piano.

I was almost sure I will go for FP80, which can be bought for <1500$ new. In youtube videos it was a clear winner over FP90 for me. Now I'm leaning much more towards the latter.

Had anyone chance to play RD2000 and FP90 side by side? I will be buying without ability to try in person, so I have to be sure the piano engine is the same on both.


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