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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.


This is the only part of your response worth commenting on. I am showing respect to other posters by warning them about how you are deceiving them, which of course is being outrageously disrespectful on your part. I also devoted much time to you, until I realized that you were being deliberately deceitful. That is very different than merely being unknowing or confused.


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Originally Posted by rXd


Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.


thanks, rXd
I shall try make yours test for grand and simple upright pianoes.
How do you feel about testing already prepared tempered sounds by playing it's listening as an interval of Major third (M3) and minor third through an octave.
for example: A2-C3, A2-C # 3?
It helps me to identify obvious flaws of it's sounding. I can hears that there are constrictions and extensions that are unacceptable. And need change it's as few glissing This is especially important that situation when we are preparing grand piano for brass and singers, I think.
Yours sincerely, Max

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.


This is the only part of your response worth commenting on. I am showing respect to other posters by warning them about how you are deceiving them, which of course is being outrageously disrespectful on your part. I also devoted much time to you, until I realized that you were being deliberately deceitful. That is very different than merely being unknowing or confused.


Jeff,

Here is one more "true self" of mine.

If you (and Kees - I believe), for some reasons want to warn other posters on Chas being a fake or crack-pottery, you ought to equip yourselves with other tools and sort out a better strategy.

You state that Chas is a fake, yet... you could grasp numerically the Chas scale ratio, you could also graph some simulations and even acknowledge that there is a difference if 12ths and 15ths have the common note at the top or at the bottom. That is (I learnt today) because you "..devoted much time" to me (??) and look, you are still alive.

Yes, I understand that in your mind, if I were "truly altruistic", I should have been "..delighted that others...", in your mind I should have been "..overjoyed when shown...", and "..enthusiastic to see..." (see post below), and I should have"..embraced the value of...", but that didn't happen (sob) and for you that proves that I am not "truly altruistic". So, you conclude that I am "..creating an idol and trying to get others to worship him (edit: read myself) through that idol."

Please, do not lol.

Chas is a fake (see graphs regarding iH), so I am deceiving other posters, "..which of course is being outrageously disrespectful..", the proof being that I am not "truly altruistic". That is why you warn posters, stating that Chas is a fake.

Oh..., that will cost you one more pint. smile Though, honestly, that is a disaster. You could say that you do not like the results, that you do not like those intervals the way they are tempered or, staying more on the fake side, that I brag about things that I cannot put into practice. Something like that, you may post your own tunings, I think that some posters may trust your ear and perhaps your skill better than your pirouetting.

Ah, yes, I should not forget to say that, IMHO, you and Kees seem to underestimate people's intelligence. That can be a serious mistake.

Kees says continuously that Chas is crack-pottery, yet... he could see that a German colleague of his was able to compare 12th-root-of-two with other modern ET's using a different model, and was able to add on today's common understanding on equal temperament. What could he tell posters about? About "bias in investigation". No way, too clumsy, how can posters take his educational 1+1=2?

And all the others, in PW or elsewhere, with whom I have already shared... How can you and Kees possibly think that your insults will keep posters safe from this scourge? smile

To All, have a nice w.e.
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 09/29/17 08:13 PM.

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Appendix:

Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Jeff,

Thank you for sharing your reasoning. I guess your interpretation may have something to do with your bias, and if that was the case, like for fans of sports teams or political parties, I would have no reason for trying to change your opinion. But at least I can reply and try, as usual, to clarify on your points.

You wrote: ..."You claim altruistic motives, that you are doing all this for the sake of Chas and not for yourself? Your actions speak otherwise, shaman."...

I do not understand if "shaman" is to be understood as a compliment or what. Anyway, yes, I am sharing the Chas theory and practice for other colleagues' benefit.

..."..Folks, do not be fooled. His Chas is a fake theory and he himself knows it."...

For what I know, a theory cannot be "a fake", it can be correct or incorrect, depending on how well it describes reality.

..."..If this was not true, he would not have pulled the trickery regarding inharmonicity in his paper, showing a linear graph in one instance and showing non-linear results in another."...

You are talking about graphs that correctly "represent" the relative (correct) figures, no more, no less. For you that is a trick, but fact is that those graphs are mere representations. In general, graphs may contain an error, but the validity of a theory has nothing to do with errors of that kind.

..."..In discussing Chas, if he were truly altruistic, he would be delighted that others have also used equal beating 12ths and 17ths to produce their own, optimum stretch."...

I do not see what difference it would make onto the Chas theory if I were selfish or altruistic, anyway... I was happy when I learned that Bill was using 12ths and 15ths for tuning octaves, and I was positive about that method, I said that it could provide a handy rule for expanding the temperament. Perhaps you could be "delighted", personally speaking I don't expand the temperament by tuning octaves only.

..."..Likewise, he would have been overjoyed when shown more elegant mathematical ways to obtain the Chas theoretical stretch number..."...

I do remember your formula, perhaps more "elegant" in your eyes, and I was happy seeing that you could eventually elaborate on that. I remember saying that that formula calculates the Chas ratio, but does not represent the reality I wanted to represent with the Chas algorithm and the relative parameters.

..."..and enthusiastic to see that it could be done whether the common note was on the top or the bottom."...

Sorry, I cannot see what that has to do with being altruistic and the validity of Chas. I am enthusiastic when I share my own experience and I mentioned that, when I expand, I do not use a spanner nor a double spanner. All intervals, with their beat-rates, contribute to shaping a "form", I think I said a beating-whole?

..."..Further, being an aural tuner, he would have embraced the value of having the common note on top because of the aural checks involved."...

For me, the "practical" value is when we interrelate all intervals, that is what I do and that is what I can share when it comes to practice.

..."..None of this happened. At first, years ago, he would become indignant, showing his true self."...

I believe we may show more than one "true self", perhaps depending on the insults, on the insinuations and on the mockery, and on deceiving and/or hijacking attempts we get from different types of posters.

..."..This was counter productive, so now he is using a soft approach pretending innocence."...

Let me say that that is your own conjecture, perhaps you would like to be depicted as a person that pretends something? I think you have a different person in mind.

..."..And yet it still comes through the cracks. Here he is now questioning Kees' credentials, which really doesn't matter; trying to shift the conversation away from himself; trying to change the focus from what is right to who is right."...

Hmm... With Kees the story is a bit different. I can ignore his arrogance, his ignorance when it comes to piano tuning practice, his bias, even him stating that Chas is crack-pottery like a broken record, I can do with that. But recently he made a serious statement that could defame a researcher, that I cannot tolerate. On the other hand, I look forward to shifting this conversation away from my psychology, from you and from Kees, and focus on what I would like to share.

..."..Folks, this is a case of someone creating an idol and trying to get others to worship him through that idol. And watch out if you question this!"...

At one stage, Jeff, I could not devote more time to you, but you might remember how I have been with posters that showed some respect.

Regards, a.c.
.


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Alfredo can't produce any counter arguments to the criticisms offered here, and is resorting to character assassination and quoting himself.

I think most readers of this thread are intelligent enough to draw the right conclusion.

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Originally Posted by rXd


Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.

I never do admit even if anybody want to change the temperament of the grand piano in order to please the same string instruments in antract. It would be very unfortunate and tragic for concert grand piano, I think. String men and ladies always wanna more upping of soundes after 5 octave to 5-7 centes

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I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.

Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
Probably it also seems, that I am running behind someone or something, but that is not the case. It is being interested in a different kind of temperament. I listened to the sound examples on Alfredo 's website and they convince me.
I already have a lot of information from Alfredo, and I simply hope to find some more here.

The fighting around here is annoyingly and not very professional. I don't want to see cartoons here and other similar comments. . If that is the only way to discuss a topic, it was better not to post something. Of course there are also great and helpful posts. But if there is such a great knowledge around out there, why is the interest in this kind of temperament so small? Because of un "untouchable" routine or many years of experience?

It makes me angry to read again and again the same uninteresting stuff and fighting. For me it is a serious work and for me there is no need to be better than other.

That all sounds quite accusingly, but my expectations from around the world were quite a bit higher than what I found here.
If it helps you can write a big IMO behind every sentence I wrote.

End of the preaching.., nice weekend.

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Originally Posted by DoelKees

Alfredo can't produce any counter arguments to the criticisms offered here,


If only you were able to "offer" some reasonable criticism, Kees... You can only produce serious insinuations, continuously. That is what Alfredo can see.

Originally Posted by DoelKees

and is resorting to character assassination and quoting himself.


Whatever Alfredo is doing, you must stop defaming people.

BTW, one poster had lamented the activity you mention, I am not sure about his name, was it Phil "the cycling tuner"? Anyway, he lamented exactly the "character assassination" that you and two others had been performing then, and that was some years ago. Same story, same insults, same insinuations, same rubbish, no constructive criticism whatsoever. In fact, what type of "criticism" can go on for such a long time?

Originally Posted by DoelKees

I think most readers of this thread are intelligent enough to draw the right conclusion.

Kees


That is the least. More important is that also in a Forum you behave like a responsible adult.

Please, clarify what you meant with "..bias in investigation.." when commenting Professor Haye Hinrichsen's results, explain how you can call that "criticism".

Originally Posted by DoelKees

Given the emphasis they place on making a connection with actual tuning practice, I cannot help thinking they looked for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.

Kees


Let us know how scientific researchers can look "..for exactly those parameters that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.".

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 09/30/17 07:33 AM.

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Yep, it was Phil D., the cycling tuner, November 27th, 2011, when Ian Russel, Jake Johnson and I were discussing some issues.

On November 19th, 2011, I had received this positive feedback in the first Chas thread:

Originally Posted by ChickGrand

Alfredo,

I just read your paper "A NEW MODEL OF INTERPRETATION OF SOME ACOUSTIC PHENOMENA CIRCULAR HARMONIC SYSTEM – C.HA.S."

Having spent some 25 years editing some hundreds of chemical engineering technical papers, I'm well acquainted with such tables and graphs. It's interesting to see your elegant approach to the whole point of distributing those semitones to create coherence in *difference* of the partials. I really like the notion of self-ordering (and the analogy of the fractal) and applying that form of math to the geometry of sound to achieve coherence. If that requires scrapping the 2:1 octave, I'm convinced enough about the beauty of your thinking to want to give it a go in tuning my piano (9-footer, low inharmonicity). So do we have instructions on how to go about tuning from scratch here? (Forgive me if I've missed that here). I could sort it out for myself, since you've provided the math (and I might approach it from that perspective anyway first, as I think it'd be instructive). The concept of the "chorale" seems to me to be the whole point and your effort to describe that mathematically is fascinating.

Rick



But the "..character assassination", in that first thread like in other threads, had started right from the beginning.

Here is the link, November 22nd, 2011:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1194874/62.html
.


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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.

I never do admit even if anybody want to change the temperament of the grand piano in order to please the same string instruments in antract. It would be very unfortunate and tragic for concert grand piano, I think. String men and ladies always wanna more upping of soundes after 5 octave to 5-7 centes


You are right, Max. Nobody would attempt that.
I asked it as more of a rhetorical question, the politest form of the lowest form of humor and I apologise to you.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.


thanks, rXd
I shall try make yours test for grand and simple upright pianoes.
How do you feel about testing already prepared tempered sounds by playing it's listening as an interval of Major third (M3) and minor third through an octave.
for example: A2-C3, A2-C # 3?
It helps me to identify obvious flaws of it's sounding. I can hears that there are constrictions and extensions that are unacceptable. And need change it's as few glissing This is especially important that situation when we are preparing grand piano for brass and singers, I think.
Yours sincerely, Max


All checks are good if they are used appropriately and in conjunction with other checks. Certainly not at the expense of other checks The example you cite is useable provided the narrow minor third bets faster than the wide major third and you are using them as a sort of comparison so that if anything wildly different you would know that somethings wrong somewhere in the previously tuned notes . I will often use the major third that you cite instead of taking my hand off the lever to reach a M10th or 17th. The minor third also in comparison with its major sixth ‘reflection ‘.

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Checks are essential to make the piano provably in tune. I have pointed out to conductors and producers intonation differences in ensembles. If you are asked to advise in this capacity, I don’t know any real musician who would accept, “no, well, yes. Er, -um you see, well, I tuned it to the twelfth you see.....”. I would be heartily laughed at. Musicians are educated these days and I am part of that education. They know what an octave is, everything it means an d how it functions.

By the way, Max, somewhere you mentioned string players going sharp upwards of the fifth octave. The good ones don’t. Some old famous ones did and some of the current crop did when they were younger but we don’t have to be good to be famous, do we?

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?


Amanda Reckonwith
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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Originally Posted by rXd

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?



Well said and well explained, rXd.

Regards, a.c.
.


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Originally Posted by TheTuner
I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.

Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
Probably it also seems, that I am running behind someone or something, but that is not the case. It is being interested in a different kind of temperament. I listened to the sound examples on Alfredo 's website and they convince me.
I already have a lot of information from Alfredo, and I simply hope to find some more here.

The fighting around here is annoyingly and not very professional. I don't want to see cartoons here and other similar comments. . If that is the only way to discuss a topic, it was better not to post something. Of course there are also great and helpful posts. But if there is such a great knowledge around out there, why is the interest in this kind of temperament so small? Because of un "untouchable" routine or many years of experience?

It makes me angry to read again and again the same uninteresting stuff and fighting. For me it is a serious work and for me there is no need to be better than other.

That all sounds quite accusingly, but my expectations from around the world were quite a bit higher than what I found here.
If it helps you can write a big IMO behind every sentence I wrote.

End of the preaching.., nice weekend.


I apologize. The theory has nothing to due with the sound, which is what you are striving for. I wish you luck. There have been many tuners that others have tried to emulate, and even with the best instructions, it just doesn't turn out that way. Bernard Stopper comes to mind along with that story with the "Schubert" tuning. Alfredo may be another.


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Originally Posted by TheTuner
I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.
Well, if you can't be bothered to spend an hour or so scanning the 500 or so posts in this thread, maybe you should ask Alfredo where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament in this thread and if he has not produced such posts himself in this tread, ask him why not.
Originally Posted by TheTuner
Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
That is entirely the fault of Alfredo who decided to copy some replies in another thread over here (bad manner IMHO) and continue the "discussion" here.

Kees

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Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Oh, and the ubiquitous old trout in the first half. Should I retune in the intermission.

I never do admit even if anybody want to change the temperament of the grand piano in order to please the same string instruments in antract. It would be very unfortunate and tragic for concert grand piano, I think. String men and ladies always wanna more upping of soundes after 5 octave to 5-7 centes


You are right, Max. Nobody would attempt that.
I asked it as more of a rhetorical question, the politest form of the lowest form of humor and I apologise to you.

I'm take yours apologise

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Originally Posted by rXd
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by rXd


Briefly, this will work for all sizes of piano. I tune the octave mainly for resonance and power (also listening throughout the sustain as long as I need to and to the arrack) striking both notes of the octave simultaneously. Then check that the fifth and twelfth are not seriously compromised and that the tenth and seventeenth are not too fast. The tenth and seventeenth behave the same. Many like them fast like a cinema organ vibrato but that can sound comical. Particularly when it happens in the middle or at the end of a serious lieder about death.

This will work for the concert instruments you are tuning these days. Pianos over six feet tune themselves, under six feet may require more compromise. That's where these "artistic" decisions stem from and from that, the common habit of applying small piano type compromises unnecessarily to larger pianos purely out of habit.


thanks, rXd
I shall try make yours test for grand and simple upright pianoes.
How do you feel about testing already prepared tempered sounds by playing it's listening as an interval of Major third (M3) and minor third through an octave.
for example: A2-C3, A2-C # 3?
It helps me to identify obvious flaws of it's sounding. I can hears that there are constrictions and extensions that are unacceptable. And need change it's as few glissing This is especially important that situation when we are preparing grand piano for brass and singers, I think.
Yours sincerely, Max


All checks are good if they are used appropriately and in conjunction with other checks. Certainly not at the expense of other checks The example you cite is useable provided the narrow minor third bets faster than the wide major third and you are using them as a sort of comparison so that if anything wildly different you would know that somethings wrong somewhere in the previously tuned notes . I will often use the major third that you cite instead of taking my hand off the lever to reach a M10th or 17th. The minor third also in comparison with its major sixth ‘reflection ‘.

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Checks are essential to make the piano provably in tune. I have pointed out to conductors and producers intonation differences in ensembles. If you are asked to advise in this capacity, I don’t know any real musician who would accept, “no, well, yes. Er, -um you see, well, I tuned it to the twelfth you see.....”. I would be heartily laughed at. Musicians are educated these days and I am part of that education. They know what an octave is, everything it means an d how it functions.

By the way, Max, somewhere you mentioned string players going sharp upwards of the fifth octave. The good ones don’t. Some old famous ones did and some of the current crop did when they were younger but we don’t have to be good to be famous, do we?

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?

Thank you, rXd.
I hope that with 10 I do something like this yours, as you say, "mirrored reflection" to 6 sixth
The fact that the stringers always try to climb their upper is their right, I suppose. They depend and are in captivity from the design of their violins. I do not blame them for trying to take upper, if it's sharp key tonality. The old school does not allow such " horse's quick splashes"
As for the sharpness, I'm a supporter of classical traditions in music. They must be unshakable, I suppose. Anyone who wants eats dishes with hot pepper and Persian garlic should prepare their in other restaurants
regards,

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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?



Well said and well explained, rXd.

Regards, a.c.
.

Your pupil TheTuner is complaining that there is no information on how to tune the Chas temperament aurally in this thread, despite the title. Content free off-topic posts like this undoubtedly contribute to his judgement.

Maybe you could explain to him how when you tune Stopper temperament on single strings, this gets magically transformed in to C.HA.S.Ⓡ when you tune the unisons.

Kees

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Originally Posted by TheTuner
I would like to say something that really makes me "out of tune ":

I am interested since quite a good amount of time in tuning Alfredo 's temperament aurally. From his side I got a lot of help and time. For me it is a fact, that my abilities to tune aurally had improved. That sounds like I am a beginner, but that is already my 12th year of tuning with lots of happy customers.

On the first page of this thread I read that it should be about the information of how to tune the Chas temperament aurally. I would like to read through the thread, but it is quite long and most of the posts are not on the originally intended idea. So if someone knows a part where there is something useful for real practice to tune this temperament, please let me know.

Unfortunately the last two pages are not really useful and definitely not my style of discussing with someone who wants to share his experiences and concepts. I found it a bit a pity that there is IMO too much opinionated affected behavior instead of real help or sharing experiences.
Probably it also seems, that I am running behind someone or something, but that is not the case. It is being interested in a different kind of temperament. I listened to the sound examples on Alfredo 's website and they convince me.
I already have a lot of information from Alfredo, and I simply hope to find some more here.

The fighting around here is annoyingly and not very professional. I don't want to see cartoons here and other similar comments. . If that is the only way to discuss a topic, it was better not to post something. Of course there are also great and helpful posts. But if there is such a great knowledge around out there, why is the interest in this kind of temperament so small? Because of un "untouchable" routine or many years of experience?

It makes me angry to read again and again the same uninteresting stuff and fighting. For me it is a serious work and for me there is no need to be better than other.

That all sounds quite accusingly, but my expectations from around the world were quite a bit higher than what I found here.
If it helps you can write a big IMO behind every sentence I wrote.

End of the preaching.., nice weekend.


I apologize. The theory has nothing to due with the sound, which is what you are striving for. I wish you luck. There have been many tuners that others have tried to emulate, and even with the best instructions, it just doesn't turn out that way. Bernard Stopper comes to mind along with that story with the "Schubert" tuning. Alfredo may be another.


Well, Jeff, let me say that in this case it is the sound, I mean the final result, that has to do with the theory. I understand what you say about instructions, but you may agree that your experience is... your experience.
.


alfredo
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Originally Posted by DoelKees
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by rXd

I would tune exactly the same for brass as for any other ensemble.

Don’t pander to poor musicianship. If they play sharp, what’s the point in tuning sharp with them? They, of course, need something to play sharp from. Don’t they?



Well said and well explained, rXd.

Regards, a.c.
.

Your pupil TheTuner is complaining that there is no information on how to tune the Chas temperament aurally in this thread, despite the title. Content free off-topic posts like this undoubtedly contribute to his judgement.

Maybe you could explain to him how when you tune Stopper temperament on single strings, this gets magically transformed in to C.HA.S.Ⓡ when you tune the unisons.

Kees


I believe Toni has complained about something else, but... never mind.

I do not tune Stopper temperament on single strings, Kees, and I would never use "StopperStimmung duodecime tuning tool", bear this in mind, otherwise it might get confusing.

The Chas preparatory tuning curve, when tuning center strings in a certain range (more often the "cantabile"), may overlap steeper ET curves, as in a continuum. Those who need some "pure" examples may think of pure 26ths, or pure 19ths, or pure 12ths or even pure 5ths, if that can help anticipating any pitch settling in a particular range.

No magic then, just physics, like acoustics, like optics. Some snails are so small that a careless eye could see them motionless but, in fact, perhaps they are moving. And a biased eye could even miss them altogether and... step on them. As I have said, different orders of magnitude matter.

Please, Kees, do not worry if I go off-topic sometime, I am confident that I can keep this thread on track. And do not worry about the amount of information in this thread, think about quality instead.

You haven't told us, based on your 35 years of experience in research, how you manage "bias" in your own investigations.

You haven't explained how Professor Haye Hinrichsen could look "..for exactly those parameter that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion.".
.

G.R.I.M. - Università di Palermo (2009)
http://math.unipa.it/~grim/Quaderno19_Capurso_09_engl.pdf

PRISTEM - Università Bocconi (2010)
Italiano - http://matematica.unibocconi.it/articoli/relazioni-armoniche-un-pianoforte
English version - http://www.pdf-archive.com/2013/04/10/chas-prof-chiriano-english/

Università di Cagliari - Tesi di Laurea (2011)
http://www.luciocadeddu.com/tesi/Cannas_triennale.pdf

Haye Hinrichsen - University of Wurzburg - Revising the musical equal temperament (2015):
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbef/v38n1/1806-9126-rbef-38-01-S1806-11173812105.pdf

.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 10/01/17 07:07 PM.

alfredo
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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't told us, based on your 35 years of experience in research, how you manage "bias" in your own investigations.
You keep repeating that like a broken record. It's called a "loaded question", like when I'd ask you "how do you manage beating your wife in your marriage". Obviously I'm not going to answer.
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
You haven't explained how Professor Haye Hinrichsen could look "..for exactly those parameter that would allow them to derive the desired conclusion."
The plain-language summary I posted of that paper by Haye was intended for readers who lack the technical background to figure out what it was really about. I have no intention or ability to simplify it even further if you still don't understand it.

Kees

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