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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Kees,

There must be a misunderstanding somewhere. I am not addressing basic notions, whole tone octave purity, or iH as it is understood. I was trying to reason on beat perception in order to understand whether Bernhard, while mentioning pure 12ths, is actually achieving close to pure 12ths.

This interest of mine comes from a recent conversation I had with Kent where, mentioning pure 12ths, he would suggest to call them "clean" 12ths.

And because Bernhard has mentioned "minimum_overall beating", I wonder how that beating sounds to him, if wide or narrow.

Perhaps some differences in our practice become significant, for instance tuning mid-strings first on a wide range, which allows the tuning of perfectly still/beat-less 12ths (as demonstrated recently at a convention in Canada) or unisons as you go, but beyond that, I wonder what is left there of an original (edit: theoretical) pure-interval strech scheme.

Apologies for some background noise.
.

I don't understand why my name is on top of your post which lacks context.

I explained to you yesterday what your "misunderstanding" is and don't really know how to explain it simpler.

Kees

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Hi Bernhard,

I hope I have explained enough why Bill's octave tuning method has nothing to do with the Chas theory and practice.

As I mentioned, perhaps some differences in our practice take us to different conclusions. In my experience we need to understand how to anticipate some settling factors, otherwise the end result might be pretty far from what we were aiming at. In fact, I would look forward to hearing some pure 12ths tunings, which I haven't so far.

Exactly the gap you see between the Chas theory and what I may do (and suggest to do) in practice took me a long time, in fact my musical ear was not happy with dry intervals and steeper curves, but then I could elaborate on what was happening.

You wonder about unisons and how they modify the pitch. Here I can tell you that more often in the lower range the pitch raises after unisons, while in the middle-high range the pitch may often drop. This may answer your questions above, on how many times should the pitch drop in different regions/ranges.

Please note, the end result may also depend on "how" we execute unisons, on where we match the outer strings, and on how consistently we manage to control the tension that is left onto the different lengths of the string.

I do understand your reservations, and I believe we may also be talking about different orders of magnitude and keep on misunderstanding each other.

Also, I do not mean to attack your results. Whenever you feel like it, answer my questions above.

Regards, a.c.

P.s.: Toni, the original poster, is sharing these recordings, any comment?

https://youtu.be/5RBskJgZFnw (temperament)

https://youtu.be/IGBrqjT0jOg (expansion)
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 09/17/17 04:15 PM.

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This "settling " of pitch. As I travelled the world to gain experience, I have come across heavy handed tuners who use a temperament type strip in the whole piano. They often tune meticulous middle strings which goes for nothing in one of two ways. Firstly, there is, of course the scruffy unison that we have already discussed (where the spread of the unison is often 4-5 times the size of the tempering of the octave) but, secondly, less obvious but more deadly is the habit of hitting the piano too hard in the belief that heavy hitting is a substitute for pin setting (very common). What happens is that the middle strings are beaten flat by the tuner, aided greatly by unset pins, during the act of filling in the unisons when removing the "muting" strip. .

Consequently, when the tuner "tries out" the piano, the treble sounds flat (because, by then, of course, it is). Not realising that they are knocking their own work out of tune, they decide that they must tune sharper in the treble. (It is not usually so obvious in the bass). ......and so the tail chasing proceeds.

I suggest that you definitely look into this. It is far too common to be ignored and the only way I know that pitch can "settle" during the course of a tuning. A properly set pin and nsl can't possibly "settle" (move, flatten, go anywhere, drift), even when the string is deflected.
Obsessions with overstretching often have their roots in early training when some of the necessary skills are not yet fully developed.

This "settling" is foreign to my colleagues and I. If anything, we often find some slight sharpening (2-3 cents) in the fifth octave , around the five notes between f and a (5) after a few hours. The unisons staying rock solid as does the rest of the piano. Never any flattening in the treble because it is so well set at the pin. Never any dependence on attempting to hit the piano harder than any pianist might. How incredibly futile is that? And unnecessarily wearing on the piano.

Until a tuner can do this, they are simply not given the higher paying work in a good team based tuning department because they create extra work for the top tuners who dictate who is allowed to touch the important pianos. That's the way the incredibly high standards are maintained. They are becoming increasingly difficult to find but once the techniques are mastered, tuning a piano is so incredibly easy.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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However.....any concept of a "pre- tuning " is destined to failure because it unnecessarily introduces another step in between supposedly out of tune to supposedly in tune. At this point re-read my last post in order to better understand why.

I only glance through this stuff any more but, in a world where stability trumps everything, if that is not a contradiction in terms these days, to deliberately disturb a tuning to create a pre- tuning in order to apply a "designer" tuning and then introduce the concept of "settling" into the mix that wouldn't otherwise be there if the piano had been tuned directly in the new designer tuning in the first place, destabilises everything, up to and including this sentence.

No tuner capable of simple reasoning is going to intentionally destabilise a piano..... To any extent..... Let alone advise others to.

How manipulative can Alfredo get? In his last post he asked Bernhard to analyse a clip from Toni that Jake, Toni and I had asked him (Alfredo) to analyse somewhere at the beginning of one of these threads. (This one, I think). Like a soap opera, isn't if?
He never offered his own analysis but is now asking Bernhard for his. By the way, in the first clip, the interval a3-e4 early in the clip has a different beat rate than the same interval at the end of the five minute clip, since we , at least, I, am (are?) talking about stability as prompted by the use of the word "settling"

Anyway, I am being nudged. At least I'm getting some fun out of this.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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Originally Posted by rXd
I had thought when this stuff first started that it was harmless crackpot stuff ..

It becomes harmful when aspiring tuners think there is something to this C.HA.S.^(R) verbiage and try to tune to 0.01 cent accuracy to some ill-defined scheme and expect to become good tuners.

In my opinion C.HA.S.^(R) theory is total nonsense, based on a lack of understanding of basic piano physics, in particular inharmonicity.

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Alfredo did a very well analysis of the recordings I made in a PM. And the goal is not to be able to tune 0,01 cent differences. That should be clear to experienced tuners.
On the other hand I have to say that I have never seen or heard a recording of your tunings. For me that was interesting.

I like to hear something from you guys!

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Originally Posted by TheTuner
Alfredo did a very well analysis of the recordings I made in a PM. And the goal is not to be able to tune 0,01 cent differences. That should be clear to experienced tuners.
On the other hand I have to say that I have never seen or heard a recording of your tunings. For me that was interesting.

I like to hear something from you guys!

Well, maybe you should share that "very well analysis of the recordings I made in a PM" here so experienced tuners can judge for themselves.

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The theme of this thread is not the analysis of Alfredo 's analysis. I would appreciate your analysis of the videos posted at the beginning. Till now nobody shared their experiences to analyze the recordings.

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Originally Posted by TheTuner
The theme of this thread is not the analysis of Alfredo 's analysis. I would appreciate your analysis of the videos posted at the beginning. Till now nobody shared their experiences to analyze the recordings.


Rxd has "shared his experiences to analyze the recordings", maybe you you should respond to him.

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What is there to analyze? There is nothing but a bunch of seemingly randomly-chosen intervals.

Equal temperament is judged by comparing like intervals. Playing a fifth, and then a fourth, and then whatever, does not offer any comparisons, and there are plenty of intervals that you leave out. You could be omitting a bunch of bad intervals with wolf tones, for all I can tell.

If you want an evaluation of a temperament, play a couple of chromatic octaves of fifths, and fourths, and thirds, and whatever. If you want the entire tuning, make it the entire range of the piano, rather than just a couple of octaves, and include intervals wider than an octave. (If you want a well-tempering, or something like that, use the sequence of similar intervals, rather than the chromatic scale. If you do not know what the sequence is, you should be questioning why you are using the temperament.)

If you listen to your own tuning critically, making the proper comparisons, you will not need anyone else to analyze your tuning.


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Toni, I believe we discussed this. The second one had unisons that obliterated the true beat rate. The first one, as I recall (I haven't time to listen again but I did listen to the beginning twice to figure how you might have arrived at the a-f# and when I eventually listened to it all, found the series of fifths a towards the end quite faster than at the beginning for some reason). I only ever do internet on my cellphone these days and I'm not used to listening to single string tuning. So, given those provisos, I found the fifths quite fast, the fourths about right in general. The a-f# is around where I would ideally like to hear it with all six strings. The b-g# I found very fast. I don't remember the thirds but if you did play some, I would have remembered if they were way off.
Since the fourths are basically a combination of the M3 beat rate and that of the fourth, I remember listening twice to try to figure how you arrived at a-f#

Try tuning from completed unisons sometime, even if it turns out to be too much trouble for your purposes, you will find the experience quite different and educational. With sbi's in particular, you may hear it more of the degree that the thin sounding single string being tuned is "absorbed" into the fatter sound of the completed unison being tuned from. Hope that doesn't sound pretentious but listen that way in combination with the beatrate to begin with. It is also good practice for making still unisons. All the tuners that I find myself associating with tune from completed unisons.


Amanda Reckonwith
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Dear rXd, sadly it does appear that your leave of absence from the ward with a phone should ought to finish soon. To be kind, I do expect that the wards personnel will shortly escort you back to the others.


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Originally Posted by rXd
Toni, I believe we discussed this. The second one had unisons that obliterated the true beat rate. The first one, as I recall (I haven't time to listen again but I did listen to the beginning twice to figure how you might have arrived at the a-f# and when I eventually listened to it all, found the series of fifths a towards the end quite faster than at the beginning for some reason). I only ever do internet on my cellphone these days and I'm not used to listening to single string tuning. So, given those provisos, I found the fifths quite fast, the fourths about right in general. The a-f# is around where I would ideally like to hear it with all six strings. The b-g# I found very fast. I don't remember the thirds but if you did play some, I would have remembered if they were way off.
Since the fourths are basically a combination of the M3 beat rate and that of the fourth, I remember listening twice to try to figure how you arrived at a-f#

Try tuning from completed unisons sometime, even if it turns out to be too much trouble for your purposes, you will find the experience quite different and educational. With sbi's in particular, you may hear it more of the degree that the thin sounding single string being tuned is "absorbed" into the fatter sound of the completed unison being tuned from. Hope that doesn't sound pretentious but listen that way in combination with the beatrate to begin with. It is also good practice for making still unisons. All the tuners that I find myself associating with tune from completed unisons.


Both videos had a muting strip in it. You can't hear unisons. Probably you hear false beats.
I arrive at f#4 as described in the PDF of Alfredo: first a4, a3, e4, d4. From e4 to b3, up to f#4. Checking the sixth a3-f#4.

Today I tried to use the muting strip only in the temperament section, tuned all unisons and went on up and down tuning unisons directly. It worked quite well. But I often tune pianos where one string sounds like an unclean unison, so in these cases I can't imagine tuning every unison first, especially in the temperament section.

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Sorry, Toni, I was going entirely from memory. There was another tuning later in the thread that i meant. Anyway, yes, some pianos are very difficult and you have to do what you have to do but limiting use of the strip to the temperament octave or so, particularly in smaller pianos will help sensing the gestalt of the piano. It is difficult but much easier on larger pianos that are more predictable in their tuning (mostly). Of course, rough tunings like pitch changes, do what's convenient
Maybe it looks like you would have to be crazy to tune a piano with only 1-2 wedges and maybe the frustrations of creating some semblance of stillness out of three false strings will drive anyone crazy. It helps to witness it being done really well. Just once is enough so that you know it is possible.

I have never seen it done at a tuners convention but a class on tuning false strings on a nasty piano by a real expert should feature at conventions. Realising that it's not impossible helps enormously. Seating strings at the bridge often helps. Even some of the finest pianos have some falseness.


Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.


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