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Originally Posted by TheTuner
I used to tune aurally for years but since I use a ETD, I am a bit out of training. The other video of me tuning the temperament section aurally is quite ok, but I don't have enough training anymore in tuning aurally.




This is precisely the reason I make the effort to remain an aural tuner. Dr. Sanderson freely admitted that "you become dependent on the machine". In other words, we get somewhat lazy.and relinquish much of the decision-making to the machine. Then...we gradually lose our ability to do it without the machine.

Pwg


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by TheTuner
I used to tune aurally for years but since I use a ETD, I am a bit out of training. The other video of me tuning the temperament section aurally is quite ok, but I don't have enough training anymore in tuning aurally.




This is precisely the reason I make the effort to remain an aural tuner. Dr. Sanderson freely admitted that "you become dependent on the machine". In other words, we get somewhat lazy.and relinquish much of the decision-making to the machine. Then...we gradually lose our ability to do it without the machine.

Pwg

That leads on the the question of whether machine tuners cam really make judgements on the suitability of the tuning that their machine had calculated.


Chris Leslie
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I have wondered that Chris.


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But one could also ask whether aural tuners can really make judgements on the suitability of their aural tunings!!!
We might say it sounds good to them because that's the limit of their hearing..
Where is the absolute true judgement to be found?
When Alexander Calder was asked how he know when was a sculpture was finished, he answered "When it's time for supper!"


Ed Sutton, RPT
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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by TheTuner
I used to tune aurally for years but since I use a ETD, I am a bit out of training. The other video of me tuning the temperament section aurally is quite ok, but I don't have enough training anymore in tuning aurally.




This is precisely the reason I make the effort to remain an aural tuner. Dr. Sanderson freely admitted that "you become dependent on the machine". In other words, we get somewhat lazy.and relinquish much of the decision-making to the machine. Then...we gradually lose our ability to do it without the machine.

Pwg


Well, (I guess) in case the tuner has found aural tuning difficult and tiring, for many years, plus feeling insecure, perhaps anxious about the results, (I guess) tuning with an ETD may give true relief.

Perhaps it goes dipper than being lazy, that tuner would actually optimize energy, and get rid of a very heavy burden, the entire responsibility for how the tuning sounds. That tuner would keep on wondering whether an ETD can give better results, when they can actually place themselves "above" the ETD, and in case make use of their aural ability to correct the electronic tuning here and there. They can now master their servant .

Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by P W Grey
Originally Posted by TheTuner
I used to tune aurally for years but since I use a ETD, I am a bit out of training. The other video of me tuning the temperament section aurally is quite ok, but I don't have enough training anymore in tuning aurally.




This is precisely the reason I make the effort to remain an aural tuner. Dr. Sanderson freely admitted that "you become dependent on the machine". In other words, we get somewhat lazy.and relinquish much of the decision-making to the machine. Then...we gradually lose our ability to do it without the machine.

Pwg

That leads on the question of whether machine tuners can really make judgments on the suitability of the tuning that their machine had calculated.


Hmm... If they cannot discern beats, I guess they have to trust what the developers and others say.


Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
But one could also ask whether aural tuners can really make judgments on the suitability of their aural tunings!!!
We might say it sounds good to them because that's the limit of their hearing..
Where is the absolute true judgement to be found?
When Alexander Calder was asked how he know when was a sculpture was finished, he answered "When it's time for supper!"


"Making judgments" and "suitability" are two different things. If the tuning sounds good to an aural tuner, it is because the latter can make judgments.

As you say, "suitability" is related to our hearing, and as you suggest, also to other factors, not last dedication. On the "musical" ground, both type of tuners, aural and ETD, can make judgments. Aural tuners, on their part, can evaluate and double-check beats.

You ask: .."Where is the absolute true judgement to be found?"

Well, as you will have noticed, things are changing in these days, a lot of information is being spread. I started with the notion that octaves should be beat-less, fourths should be wide and fifths narrow... We started with a wrong reference which has made our way very arduous.

Aural tuning can be as pleasurable today as playing with rhythm, playing on a drum set that can actually sing the most harmonious sounds, like a completely different dimension, no more doubts, no more struggle, if you like playing. Today the informed aural tuner can rely on new references and believe - as I believe - that their judgments are... fairly true.

Kind regards, a.c.
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That leads on the the question of whether machine tuners can really make judgments on the suitability of the tuning that their machine had calculated.
(Edited)

This question has come up before and I had intended to answer it but, to be honest, felt my answer would not be considered valid or "talked down". But, there it is. I'm going to face my fears and give my answer.

I mainly listen to octaves and unisons. Since I play piano (not real well, but I do play) I run through scales and chords and play a song or two. Cleaning up unisons many times will help the octaves to sounds pleasant. By the way, I choose to use the word "pleasant" when describing octaves. It seems more musical to me and it doesn't back me into a corner, so to speak.

Also, it probably goes without saying, but if something sounds off I check it with my ETD and see what's going on. Conversely, if something sounds good to me but my ETD says it's off, I go with what sounds good to me. Yes, I am trusting my ETD to set the temperament (from what I've read for years, most people agree that a capable ETD can set an adequate, if not superior temperament), but from there I listen to octaves and unisons. I've gotten very good at tuning unisons by ear. I feel that that is one advantage of using an ETD. I can spend more energy on unisons. Right now the main ETD I use is Tunic OnlyPure, so if I have a problem with a unison, I tune each string with it and considering false beats and other stuff, that's the best compromise.

In my opinion, the pianos that are easy to tune are well scaled ones. If you have a capable ETD these will be a breeze. The ones that are a problem are the poorly scaled ones. Quite often spinets but certainly not always. The Yamaha GH1 has it's infamous break to deal with. In these instances I do what I suppose most aural tuners do. I set the temperament (by the way, I can set the temperament wherever I want to) and tune octaves out from there paying special attention to the wound strings and longest plain strings as I go down. This is where ETD's have the most problems (in my opinion). So, I tune them to sound pleasant or mainly beatless.

So, there it is. That's, in nutshell, how I tell if a tuning I've done is suitable for that piano.


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Alfredo-

My comment was in reply to what someone wrote:
"That leads on the the question of whether machine tuners cam really make judgements on the suitability of the tuning that their machine had calculated."

One can find self-proclaimed master aural tuners who do very sad work. And ETD users who run the lights and run with the money. Probably neither can make good judgements.

I can make virtually absolute judgements about horrible unisons and tunings that go out in the first hour of playing, or a piano that is at 433Hz when it was supposed to be at 440Hz.
On the positive side, I can't define, or hear the "absolute best" tuning, but I can hear what seems to me to be a very good or very beautiful tuning. Another tuning might sound as good or better.

I am touched by your use of the word "dedication."
Those of us who are dedicated are seldom satisfied for long.
Perhaps I can feel my work on this piano in front of me is adequate, is good.
But soon there's the next one....

Best regards,
Ed


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Dear Alfredo and everyone else

You encourage and challenge me to tune again more aurally! I believe, that I will be able to tune aurally with a little training in quite a short amount of time.
The reasons I started to use an ETD is mainly that I had a time where I often had to tune for hotels and not very quiet places. Nine of ten times I started tuning (aurally) and during setting the temperament they started to prepare the tables for the planned wedding, glasses, forks and talking. I couldn't tune anymore because I wanted to tune a high quality tuning. But I simply can't tune in noisy environments. I started to use an ETD. The Verituner gave me in such situations great results and the longer and more I used it I suddenly was a hybrid tuner. I always checked the tuning with all the test intervals and still do it. In this time my reputation as a good tuner has grown fast and new customers, especially pianists told me that their piano never sounded better. So why not use an EDT? BTW I have the opportunity to tune different UT's with the Verituner.

I know that tuning is and can be very pleasurable, I used to use many many tests while tuning aurally and it was more interesting while tuning then with an ETD. But I really doubt if the results are better when tuning aurally. And my ability to judge a tuning has highly grown, even as a hybrid tuner. I am also a professional pianist. When I play on a piano tuned by someone else, I am mostly not satisfied, although the tunings are very good. I don't know exactly what it is. Probably I miss the evenness across the whole keyboard.

I opened a thread a few weeks ago where everyone was invited to post a video of him tuning. Aurally or EDT tuners. Unfortunately only a few techs posted a video.

I will try to tune a piano aurally tomorrow and I will post it on this video thread. I was very happy if someone could give me a feedback on how to improve my aural tuning technique.
Thanks and best wishes
Toni

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Thank you, Scott, for sharing your way and for being so frank.

Thank you, Ed, for your reply. I mostly agree on what you are saying, the conscientious tuner might always hear that voice.. could I have done better?

I hope you can agree on one thing that IMO is not secondary at all in this discussion: today the aural tuner can make use of new "tools", newly defined reference intervals and beat rate proportions, and see how far their tuning is from their favorite ET. On the one hand our musical ear, on the other hand the possibility to double-check our tunings and take our next tuning closer to where we want it to be.

Kind regards,

a.c.
.


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Originally Posted by TheTuner
Dear Alfredo and everyone else

You encourage and challenge me to tune again more aurally! I believe, that I will be able to tune aurally with a little training in quite a short amount of time.
The reasons I started to use an ETD is mainly that I had a time where I often had to tune for hotels and not very quiet places. Nine of ten times I started tuning (aurally) and during setting the temperament they started to prepare the tables for the planned wedding, glasses, forks and talking. I couldn't tune anymore because I wanted to tune a high quality tuning. But I simply can't tune in noisy environments. I started to use an ETD. The Verituner gave me in such situations great results and the longer and more I used it I suddenly was a hybrid tuner. I always checked the tuning with all the test intervals and still do it. In this time my reputation as a good tuner has grown fast and new customers, especially pianists told me that their piano never sounded better. So why not use an EDT? BTW I have the opportunity to tune different UT's with the Verituner.

I know that tuning is and can be very pleasurable, I used to use many many tests while tuning aurally and it was more interesting while tuning then with an ETD. But I really doubt if the results are better when tuning aurally. And my ability to judge a tuning has highly grown, even as a hybrid tuner. I am also a professional pianist. When I play on a piano tuned by someone else, I am mostly not satisfied, although the tunings are very good. I don't know exactly what it is. Probably I miss the evenness across the whole keyboard.

I opened a thread a few weeks ago where everyone was invited to post a video of him tuning. Aurally or EDT tuners. Unfortunately only a few techs posted a video.

I will try to tune a piano aurally tomorrow and I will post it on this video thread. I was very happy if someone could give me a feedback on how to improve my aural tuning technique.
Thanks and best wishes
Toni



Hi Toni,

I will be happy to help you and I am sure others are ready as well.

You wrote: .."But I really doubt if the results are better when tuning aurally."

Well, if the results Are better or not, will depend on how good the aural tuning is and perhaps on the ETD you are comparing it with.

If you are wondering whether tuning aurally Can give better results, I have no doubts, the answer is yes.

For what I have heard so far, ETD's, no matter the brand, help the tuner tune a quasi-ET, say a WT of some sort. Mind you, those results may not derive from the ETD's pitch recognition, but from other variables, like pitch sagging, that affect our tunings and the final result inevitably. Aural tuning, in my experience, can make you achieve well ordered progressive and coherent intervals. No matter the piano size or brand, there you are shaping a form.

Tomorrow, enjoy your tuning.

a.c.
.


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Hi All,

I was addressed to a video made by Rafael (Gadzar) available on You Tube. BTW, great demonstration, Rafael, thank you.

Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmYBbwd_dHo

Listen to that and, if you like, let me know what you think/what you hear.

Does that sound like "ET pure 12ths"?

Regards, a.c.

Edit: Bernhard, are you still alive?
.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 07/02/17 06:41 PM.

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Alfredo,

For the most part it sounds pretty good. Yes, there are some inconsistencies in progressions, improvements could be made. The temperament octave appears to me to be a pure 4:2, whereas it probably eants to be slightly expanded for this type of tuning.

My biggest concerns are in the very low bass and very high treble. The low bass appears to be stretched way too far (for my taste) and the high treble sounds dull and thuddy. This may just be the piano, but it SOUNDS like it may have been stretched a bit too far...beyond the ability to resonate with the lower octave(s).

Otherwise I think it would satisfy many musicians.

Pwg


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Hi Peter,

Thanks for your analysis.

A3-A4 the latter is on the narrow threshold
A3-D4 about 0,5 b/s - too close to pure
D4-A4 1 b/s - A4 is too flat
A3-E4 0.8 b/s - E4 is too flat
E4-A4 almost pure
F3-A3 is what it is
F3-A4 beats like F3-A3, if not a hair slower

This setting is unfortunate, because the tuning curve, for the little we have, is pointing towards narrower and narrower fifths and octaves and 12ths.

At 2:59 check the progression of the fourths:

F3-A#3 very little wide
F#3-B3 1 b/s
G3-C4 slower than previous
G#3-C#4 faster than previous
A3-D4 slower than previous
A#3-D#4 like previous
B3-E4 1.something b/s
C4-F4 slower than previous
C#4-F#4 slower than previous
D4-G4 faster than previous
D#4-G#4 slower than previous
E4-A4 almost pure

At 3:28 check the progression of the fifths:

F3-C4 1.5 b/s
F#3-C#4 equal or a hair slower
G3-D4 a hair faster
G#3-D#4 slower
A3-E4 equal or a hair faster than previous
A#3-F4 slower than previous
B3-F#4 sensibly faster
C4-G4 and faster
C#4-G#4 slower
D4-A4 and slower

At 6:14 check the 12ths. There is some sort of consistency in between E3 - bottom note - and E4, and a true pure 12th at B4 (bottom note) and perhaps a few others. What could be deduced from the A3-A4 temperament is clearly confirmed by the whole treble range. The progression of the intervals, including thirds, 6ths, 10ths and 17ths sounds more like a WT, perhaps an odd WT.

Not able to say if and how it could be sold, perhaps yes, as an ETD tuning.

Kind regards,

a.c.

Edit: I would appreciate other contributions, in particular from other aural/hybrid tuners, and from you, Kees, as my ear could be hijacked by the speakers on my laptop.

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 07/03/17 06:35 PM.

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Yesterday I did my first full aural tuning again, the last was years ago.
The first video is me playing after having finished, just the whole piano as it sounds. After having tuned I can't play very well, my hands and arms are not in "piano player " mode.

https://youtu.be/_lVMiLIZ_-4

The next is tuning the temperament from about h2 - g5, first strikt aural attempt since years. You can skip and watch only the last two minutes or so.

https://youtu.be/B5O-dmKIym4

The last is from this morning, the third attempt, about the same range. There is a little jump in the progression at e3. E3 is the last plain wire on that Petrof upright.

https://youtu.be/dtDK91CdUnI

Any comments are welcome. Thanks

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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your analysis.

A3-A4 the latter is on the narrow threshold
A3-D4 about 0,5 b/s - too close to pure
D4-A4 1 b/s - A4 is too flat
A3-E4 0.8 b/s - E4 is too flat
E4-A4 almost pure
F3-A3 is what it is
F3-A4 beats like F3-A3, if not a hair slower

This setting is unfortunate, because the tuning curve, for the little we have, is pointing towards narrower and narrower fifths and octaves and 12ths.

At 2:59 check the progression of the fourths:

F3-A#3 very little wide
F#3-B3 1 b/s
G3-C4 slower than previous
G#3-C#4 faster than previous
A3-D4 slower than previous
A#3-D#4 like previous
B3-E4 1.something b/s
C4-F4 slower than previous
C#4-F#4 slower than previous
D4-G4 faster than previous
D#4-G#4 slower than previous
E4-A4 almost pure

At 3:28 check the progression of the fifths:

F3-C4 1.5 b/s
F#3-C#4 equal or a hair slower
G3-D4 a hair faster
G#3-D#4 slower
A3-E4 equal or a hair faster than previous
A#3-F4 slower than previous
B3-F#4 sensibly faster
C4-G4 and faster
C#4-G#4 slower
D4-A4 and slower

At 6:14 check the 12ths. There is some sort of consistency in between E3 - bottom note - and E4, and a true pure 12th at B4 (bottom note) and perhaps a few others. What could be deduced from the A3-A4 temperament is clearly confirmed by the whole treble range. The progression of the intervals, including thirds, 6ths, 10ths and 17ths sounds more like a WT, perhaps an odd WT.

Not able to say if and how it could be sold, perhaps yes, as an ETD tuning.

Kind regards,

a.c.

Edit: I would appreciate other contributions, in particular from other aural/hybrid tuners, and from you, Kees, as my ear could be hijacked by the speakers on my laptop.


That this is a tough, hard-to-please crowd is why this is a good place to bring tunings. Thanks.

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Toni,

I think you did a nice job, especially since you've been "machining" now for years. It takes a while to get back in the groove (so to speak). It is hard work, isn't it?

I feel that any discrepancies existing (yes there are some) are not of any realistic consequence. I don't believe anyone who claims that they do a perfect flawless job on every piano they tune. You obviously have the capability to do it without the machine, but have chosen the machine as an aid to efficiency and adverse circumstances. I do not fault that in the least.

Also, nice playing! I like it. You and I have a similar style.

Also, one other thing I would mention which is rather important: One's perception of beat rates is often dependent on precisely WHERE you are hearing them from. I learned this in the process of creating master tunings for the PTG exam. The person sitting at the piano with the tuning hammer in hand hears a beat rate...another person standing on one side of the piano hears it differently (literally) and disagrees with where the tuner wants to put it. Then they switch places and guess what? Each one now hears what the other heard originally. This has happened numerous times. So...in the application here, the microphone is in a different spot from the tuners ears, and may very well be "hearing" things DIFFERENTLY from what the tuner is hearing.

We should all keep this in mind when nit-picking away at someone else's tuning. This is a very real phenomenon.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
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Perhaps I can feel my work on this piano in front of me is adequate, is good.
But soon there's the next one....


Thanks Ed. I always appreciate your philosophical view of what we do. You help me feel better. smile


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Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Hi Peter,

Thanks for your analysis.

A3-A4 the latter is on the narrow threshold
A3-D4 about 0,5 b/s - too close to pure
D4-A4 1 b/s - A4 is too flat
A3-E4 0.8 b/s - E4 is too flat
E4-A4 almost pure
F3-A3 is what it is
F3-A4 beats like F3-A3, if not a hair slower

This setting is unfortunate, because the tuning curve, for the little we have, is pointing towards narrower and narrower fifths and octaves and 12ths.

At 2:59 check the progression of the fourths:

F3-A#3 very little wide
F#3-B3 1 b/s
G3-C4 slower than previous
G#3-C#4 faster than previous
A3-D4 slower than previous
A#3-D#4 like previous
B3-E4 1.something b/s
C4-F4 slower than previous
C#4-F#4 slower than previous
D4-G4 faster than previous
D#4-G#4 slower than previous
E4-A4 almost pure

At 3:28 check the progression of the fifths:

F3-C4 1.5 b/s
F#3-C#4 equal or a hair slower
G3-D4 a hair faster
G#3-D#4 slower
A3-E4 equal or a hair faster than previous
A#3-F4 slower than previous
B3-F#4 sensibly faster
C4-G4 and faster
C#4-G#4 slower
D4-A4 and slower

At 6:14 check the 12ths. There is some sort of consistency in between E3 - bottom note - and E4, and a true pure 12th at B4 (bottom note) and perhaps a few others. What could be deduced from the A3-A4 temperament is clearly confirmed by the whole treble range. The progression of the intervals, including thirds, 6ths, 10ths and 17ths sounds more like a WT, perhaps an odd WT.

Not able to say if and how it could be sold, perhaps yes, as an ETD tuning.

Kind regards,

a.c.

Edit: I would appreciate other contributions, in particular from other aural/hybrid tuners, and from you, Kees, as my ear could be hijacked by the speakers on my laptop.


That this is a tough, hard-to-please crowd is why this is a good place to bring tunings. Thanks.


Hi Kent,

I do not think you would ever suggest that we should be kind of superficial, easily pleased or willing to please when we analyse an aural or ETD's tuning, either using our ear or with the help of some electronics, like we have done in the past, and hopefully will do in the future.

What did you want to say, can you explain?

Kind regards, a.c.
.


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Originally Posted by TheTuner


I know that tuning is and can be very pleasurable, I used to use many many tests while tuning aurally and it was more interesting while tuning then with an ETD. But I really doubt if the results are better when tuning aurally.


Agreed 100%.

Many piano teachers and players PREFER software tuning....


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Originally Posted by Musicdude
Originally Posted by TheTuner


I know that tuning is and can be very pleasurable, I used to use many many tests while tuning aurally and it was more interesting while tuning then with an ETD. But I really doubt if the results are better when tuning aurally.


Agreed 100%.

Many piano teachers and players PREFER software tuning....


For me it becomes more and more pleasurable at the moment

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