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Originally Posted by P W Grey
In reality, of all the things involved in good tuning, temperament is actually fairly low on the priority list. It is far more important to have good stable unisons and consistent octaves. Stability in these areas does not generally come from using an ETD. It comes from feeling, sensing, and hearing. A sub-optimal temperament will not even be noticed if these other things are excellent.

Pwg


Hi Peter,

On the first thing you wrote. Actually, if you have in mind those situations when we are short of time, then yes, I agree, bad unisons and/or octaves may be noticed first. But if there is no time pressure, it is a very accurate temperament that sets the correct premises for expanding the tuning more easily, hopefully reducing the effects of cumulative approximations (read tuning the treble).
.


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Originally Posted by prout
I agree that overstretching the high treble causes the piano to sound strident, and I think this is why it is done. The sustain is so short on the majority of S&S Ds that populate so many concert stages that the percussive sound is all that is heard. I have heard, and seen graphs of stretches in the C7-C8 octave of well over 50 cents at C8. These are clearly not 2:1 octaves.


If anything, strident high trebles cut the sustain. Octaves should never be 2:1, meaning beat-less, no matter the range, if they were so they would be wrong, and IMO wrong beat-less octaves - or even narrow octaves - is why overstretching is so needed in the high treble.

If "..the percussive sound is all that is heard.." you want to increase resonance, for that you need a good tuning curve.
.


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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by prout
I agree that overstretching the high treble causes the piano to sound strident, and I think this is why it is done. The sustain is so short on the majority of S&S Ds that populate so many concert stages that the percussive sound is all that is heard. I have heard, and seen graphs of stretches in the C7-C8 octave of well over 50 cents at C8. These are clearly not 2:1 octaves.


If anything, strident high trebles cut the sustain. Octaves should never be 2:1, meaning beat-less, no matter the range, if they were so they would be wrong, and IMO wrong beat-less octaves - or even narrow octaves - is why overstretching is so needed in the high treble.

If "..the percussive sound is all that is heard.." you want to increase resonance, for that you need a good tuning curve.
.


My own stretch is in the 30 cent range on C8. This creates a marginally wide octave. This issue I have is that, from C7 up, the front duplex, speaking length, and rear duplex all are at roughly, but not precisely the same pitch. It is a matter of getting 9 simultaneous string segments to sound 'harmonious', and this requires a compromise sometimes in the octave width.

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Originally Posted by Ed Sutton

I believe Kent Swafford, who has promoted the P12 tuning and Tunic for several years, now says that CyberTuner is his preference for the P12 tuning.


I suppose the various ETDs do have strengths and weaknesses, but OnlyPure, RCT, and Verituner are all able to tune excellent Pure 12th ET tunings.

(I did have a problem at one point upgrading to iOS and Android versions before OnlyPure supported them, but all is well now.)

My article series in the Piano Technicians Journal is underway now in the July 2017 issue. That is the issue with the cover photo of OnlyPure, RCT, and Verituner all set up at one piano for simultaneous use. I hope everyone will take a look at my articles.

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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by alfredo capurso
Originally Posted by prout
I agree that overstretching the high treble causes the piano to sound strident, and I think this is why it is done. The sustain is so short on the majority of S&S Ds that populate so many concert stages that the percussive sound is all that is heard. I have heard, and seen graphs of stretches in the C7-C8 octave of well over 50 cents at C8. These are clearly not 2:1 octaves.


If anything, strident high trebles cut the sustain. Octaves should never be 2:1, meaning beat-less, no matter the range, if they were so they would be wrong, and IMO wrong beat-less octaves - or even narrow octaves - is why overstretching is so needed in the high treble.

If "..the percussive sound is all that is heard.." you want to increase resonance, for that you need a good tuning curve.
.


My own stretch is in the 30 cent range on C8. This creates a marginally wide octave. This issue I have is that, from C7 up, the front duplex, speaking length, and rear duplex all are at roughly, but not precisely the same pitch. It is a matter of getting 9 simultaneous string segments to sound 'harmonious', and this requires a compromise sometimes in the octave width.


Hmm... "compromise" is a dangerous word for me smile Ever tried to tune C7 up to C8 aurally? I can only suggest what I often do, play the DO and 12ths below the note you are tuning and simultaneously (or after a fraction) pluck the string you are tuning, then the latter should sound a tiny bit flat, though playing the octave normally it should sound a tiny bit sharp, nicely within your musical-ear tolerance.
.


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Originally Posted by prout
I agree that overstretching the high treble causes the piano to sound strident, and I think this is why it is done. The sustain is so short on the majority of S&S Ds that populate so many concert stages that the percussive sound is all that is heard. I have heard, and seen graphs of stretches in the C7-C8 octave of well over 50 cents at C8. These are clearly not 2:1 octaves.


If you don't think they are 2:1, then how do you know for certain what coincident partials you are matching
in the C7-C8 octaves?

What is your method for aurally tuning the final 1-2 octaves in the treble?



Last edited by Musicdude; 06/24/17 02:17 PM.

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Quote
In reality, of all the things involved in good tuning, temperament is actually fairly low on the priority list. It is far more important to have good stable unisons and consistent octaves. Stability in these areas does not generally come from using an ETD. It comes from feeling, sensing, and hearing. A sub-optimal temperament will not even be noticed if these other things are excellent.


This has been my opinion for a long time too. But, not being an aural tuner, I knew my opinion would be considered invalid.


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Well, IME a sub-optimal temperament will not result in an optimal tuning. Once "..good stable unisons and consistent octaves.." are excellent, your optimal tuning may be noticed and then it would make a real difference, compared to ordinary priority-list tunings.
.


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Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by Ed Sutton

I believe Kent Swafford, who has promoted the P12 tuning and Tunic for several years, now says that CyberTuner is his preference for the P12 tuning.


I suppose the various ETDs do have strengths and weaknesses, but OnlyPure, RCT, and Verituner are all able to tune excellent Pure 12th ET tunings.

(I did have a problem at one point upgrading to iOS and Android versions before OnlyPure supported them, but all is well now.)

My article series in the Piano Technicians Journal is underway now in the July 2017 issue. That is the issue with the cover photo of OnlyPure, RCT, and Verituner all set up at one piano for simultaneous use. I hope everyone will take a look at my articles.


Was it possible to send me a copy? Very interested in!
Thanks

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Originally Posted by Musicdude
Originally Posted by prout
I agree that overstretching the high treble causes the piano to sound strident, and I think this is why it is done. The sustain is so short on the majority of S&S Ds that populate so many concert stages that the percussive sound is all that is heard. I have heard, and seen graphs of stretches in the C7-C8 octave of well over 50 cents at C8. These are clearly not 2:1 octaves.


If you don't think they are 2:1, then how do you know for certain what coincident partials you are matching
in the C7-C8 octaves?

What is your method for aurally tuning the final 1-2 octaves in the treble?


My non-professional opinion, based on extensive research into iH, is that the scale of an S&S D could not produce a natural 50+cent C8 as a result of a 2:1 partial match.

I'm not sure what you are asking. I can clearly hear the 2nd partials of C6 through C7, and I prefer precise 2:1 octaves, so tuning a single string is as easy as the three vibrating segments allow.

The natural resultant stretch of tuning 2:1 octaves from C7 up results in C8 being about 32 cents sharp on my M&H BB.

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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Musicdude
Originally Posted by prout
I agree that overstretching the high treble causes the piano to sound strident, and I think this is why it is done. The sustain is so short on the majority of S&S Ds that populate so many concert stages that the percussive sound is all that is heard. I have heard, and seen graphs of stretches in the C7-C8 octave of well over 50 cents at C8. These are clearly not 2:1 octaves.


If you don't think they are 2:1, then how do you know for certain what coincident partials you are matching
in the C7-C8 octaves?

What is your method for aurally tuning the final 1-2 octaves in the treble?


My non-professional opinion, based on extensive research into iH, is that the scale of an S&S D could not produce a natural 50+cent C8 as a result of a 2:1 partial match.

I'm not sure what you are asking. I can clearly hear the 2nd partials of C6 through C7, and I prefer precise 2:1 octaves, so tuning a single string is as easy as the three vibrating segments allow.

The natural resultant stretch of tuning 2:1 octaves from C7 up results in C8 being about 32 cents sharp on my M&H BB.


Ok, that's what I said earlier.

So you just tune octaves, octaves+5th, and double octaves at the highest treble, right?

What coincident partials are you matching in the octaves just above the temperament?


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Leave your preference aside, if you have tuned 2:1 zero-beating octaves from the mid-range upwards, you will end up being flat, unless you resort to overstretching smile

You mention a "..natural resultant stretch of tuning 2:1 octaves..", but neither 2:1 octaves nor the resultant stretch should be thought as "natural", perhaps you meant "consequent"?
.


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Originally Posted by alfredo capurso

Leave your preference aside, if you have tuned 2:1 zero-beating octaves from the mid-range upwards, you will end up being flat, unless you resort to overstretching smile

You mention a "..natural resultant stretch of tuning 2:1 octaves..", but neither 2:1 octaves nor the resultant stretch should be thought as "natural", perhaps you meant "consequent"?
.


I don't tune zero-beating octaves except in the C7-C8 range. To my ear, it sounds 'correct' or 'flat', depending on the musical context.

...Busy at the moment... will provide more comprehensive reply later. Cheers.

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Cheers.
.


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Originally Posted by Kent Swafford
Originally Posted by Ed Sutton

I believe Kent Swafford, who has promoted the P12 tuning and Tunic for several years, now says that CyberTuner is his preference for the P12 tuning.


I suppose the various ETDs do have strengths and weaknesses, but OnlyPure, RCT, and Verituner are all able to tune excellent Pure 12th ET tunings.

(I did have a problem at one point upgrading to iOS and Android versions before OnlyPure supported them, but all is well now.)

My article series in the Piano Technicians Journal is underway now in the July 2017 issue. That is the issue with the cover photo of OnlyPure, RCT, and Verituner all set up at one piano for simultaneous use. I hope everyone will take a look at my articles.


Just to try to be more clear, it is incorrect to say that RCT to the exclusion of other ETDs is my preference for tuning pure 12th ET.

Here is how I tuned today.

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My comment on temperament being low on the priority list was not intended as an excuse for doing a sloppy job, not by any means. But simply it was in the context of what constitutes the "perfect" temperament and should it be achieved electronically or aurally...is one better than the other...and beginner vs seasoned pro...at least I think that was the thrust of this thread (I could be wrong on that).

On a very good piano it usually takes less than 5 minutes easily to lay down a near perfect temperament aurally. If warranted, another few minutes to make it perfect. On a badly scaled or problematic string rendering piano it can become quite frustrating. Here is where one sometimes needs to cut his losses and move on, even though not ideal. A weird piano (some absolutely do not follow the rules)...this is where I might pull out Tunelab and see what it can do...then clean it up aurally.

Again, for clarification...every piano deserves our best shot. However, if I HAVE to make a choice I am not going to waste lots of time on the temperament when I know unisons and octaves are more important.

I hope everyone gets the gist of what I am saying here.

Pwg


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A good equal temperament enables to use of progressive 10th and 17ths as a tool for smooth expansion. With poor progression on the temperament, or with deliberate unequal tuning, we can't take full advantage of that tool.


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If you're a Verituner user and haven't seen the discussion of Kent Swafford's Pure 12th tuning styles for the Verituner, here's the link:

http://sforum.veritune.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=721

Scroll down to see the discussion starting June 21. Kent provides the link to where his style files can be downloaded.

Highly recommended!


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Alfredo-
What would be your preference for intervals to be recorded?


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Originally Posted by Ed Sutton
Alfredo-
What would be your preference for intervals to be recorded?


Thanks Ed,

That's very kind of you.

In general, 3ds and 4ths and 6ths up to A4, all the fifths, octaves,10ths,12ths, double-octaves and 17ths available, depending on the range you record, ideally 3 octaves centre string only, 3-4 seconds per interval.

Kind regards, a.c

Last edited by alfredo capurso; 06/26/17 08:09 AM.

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