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Hello!
I am CA17 owner, and one moment bothers me a little - when I chose "SK grand" sound, it has some additional strange noise in lower notes, especially in C2 - B2 region. It's like a little "hissing" or something slightly similar to "damper noise" effect. And it increases if more brilliance is added, and almost disappers if brilliance is set to minimal (-10).
But when I switch to another samples - "EX grand", "Acoustic piano" etc. - the sound is crystal clear, no noises.
I supposed this little noise may be a kind of a feature of a real acoustic SK grand that was used for samples recording... but it's unlikely that grand piano of such a highest class, one of the best in the world, can produce such an annoying sounds...
What sort of problem can it be?


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Hi 33 - does it occur both on headphones as well as the speaker system? If only on the speaker system, it could be sympathetic resonance from some parts inside the piano. It could even be something near ( or far from ) the piano resonating in sympathy.
I had a little mechanical clock near our HP605 that had a sympathy with the piano ^^ as well as a light I first had on top of the piano that was a little resonant.

If it is both on headphones and on speakers it is part of the sample or perhaps you are more sensitive to parts of the timbres/resonances: you could if you do not like this resonance perhaps attune it using the kawai app if that function is available for your model, or from the piano's menu system of course - the app is more convenient but is only for apple products..


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It occurs both on headphones as well as the speaker system.
I connected my piano to the computer and recorded it. Here's the sample: https://soundcloud.com/sergey-kheladze/sk-grand-samples-noise - first, I play some notes with EX sound, than switch to SK and noises appear. Add some volume, it must be quite loud to here this noises. Yes, it reminds sympathetic resonance, but within sample itself...
It can be reduced almost to none if I use Virtual technician and decrease brilliance to it's minimal value - but the sound is so dull without brilliance...


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Ya, there's a buzzy sound to it. Try playing around with other parameters within the Virtual Technician other than brilliance, which affects the whole keyboard.

Have you updated the firmware to the latest version? I believe there's a way to make adjustments on single notes, but Kawai James would know for sure.


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I think it is the bass string copper windings you hear - could be on that particular piano with this particular recording it is a bit more to the fore and that your ears are more attuned to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hec8TkKB8Pg


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these ringings are overtones, try the sk-5 sample and play some bass keys very loud. This is typical for grands. My own acoustic grand, a gx2 from kawai has it, the steinway grand from my teacher has it, the grotian steiweg grand belonging to my friend has it. Typical for grands.

Daniel


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It's not the first time that this comes up. Start reading from KiwiTommy's post here: Kawai-CA 97 (SHS) headphone question

As you said, this sound gets louder when the brilliance is increased. This buzzing is audible at a certain velocity and turning off all the VT settings does not solve this. EX and SK-5 do not present this characteristic.

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overtones from tuned aliquots is not what he was referring to I think daniel though now you make me doubt it ^^ The overtones I hear there are not those but just the undamped upper octave and a half sometimes. I don't think the SK come with tuned aliquots


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Hi, I I can assure you that we are not talking about overtones (I know what they sound like). I will quote myself from the Kawai-CA 97 (SHS) thread:
____________________
I own a Kawai CA67 and can hear that strange hissing sound too when using headphones, although it is barely hearable. While playing with the settings I stumbled something: Changing the voicing in the virtual technician, changing headphone types and changing the tone settings (in basic settings) has influence on the noise. That leads me to the conclusion, that the equalizer is the cause of the noise. All those settings behave similar to an equalizer, at least in my experience. So I think all those are managed through the same EQ and just changing values.
Furthermore if I record as MP3 instead of WAV the noise is very loud on the recording, but I don´t have an idea why that is the case yet. (update: it was VLC Player´s fault. MP3 and WAV sound the same with another music player)

You can try it for yourselves, just set the brillance (in the tone settings in the basic settings) to high values like 9 or 10. In my case the noise gets louder and very annoying.
Would be nice if some CA owners could test that. Still I want to add, that the noise is not an issue for me as long as I use reasonable settings. Brillance value higher than 5 sound awful anyway.
____________________

So you are not alone! Another possibility is, that it is because the samples are compressed to save storage space.

Kind Regards
Hoizmichl

Last edited by Hoizmichl; 05/21/17 10:49 AM.
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I just tried it: CA97, headphones, brilliance at +10. I can't hear any strange noise. It's possible that my ears simply cannot hear it. Or it's possible your ears are overly sensitive to a certain frequency. Or it's possible you have a hardware problem. I would try to find a CA17, CA67 or CA97 in a shop and try to reproduce it there (with different headphones), to find out if the former or the latter.


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Tested already in the past and tested today again. Same results as I previously posted.

Originally Posted by f3r
It's not the first time that this comes up. Start reading from KiwiTommy's post here: Kawai-CA 97 (SHS) headphone question

As you said, this sound gets louder when the brilliance is increased. This buzzing is audible at a certain velocity and turning off all the VT settings does not solve this. EX and SK-5 do not present this characteristic.


This is not a problem for me, it's almost inaudible with my settings, I have to search for it to hear it.

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Here are two FFT shots of the same note - the top image is the EX and the bottom image is the SK. In BOTH images the ONLY difference is the relative amplitudes of the partials (this is the correct term for 'overtones'). To my eye and ear the EX sounds good and the SK is quite muffled. There is, however, no noise. What you guys call noise is the combined effect of the partials, which are all inharmonic, but integrally related to the first partial (fundamental frequency). This is what defines piano sound.

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You will see one significant 'knocking' sound that is not a partial at about 205Hz. It is probably a simulated keybedding sound.

edit: JoBert solved my image posting problem.

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Originally Posted by prout
By the way, does anybody know how to get the damn images to post?

You need to put the URL of the image itself between the opening and closing image tags, not the URL of the html page that contains the images. Like what I did below (click "quote" to see the source of what I posted).

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Excellent. Thanks for the info.

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Nice analysis and explanation prout - which tool is being used there, may I ask?


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I would love to record the noise for you, as I am absolutely sure we are not talking about overtones (at least I am not).
Problem is: the noise is not on WAV recordings done with the pianos own recorder and I have no cable at the moment to record directly from the headphone jack.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Nice analysis and explanation prout - which tool is being used there, may I ask?

Oscillometer - a wonderful piece of Russian software.

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Originally Posted by Hoizmichl
I would love to record the noise for you, as I am absolutely sure we are not talking about overtones (at least I am not).
Problem is: the noise is not on WAV recordings done with the pianos own recorder and I have no cable at the moment to record directly from the headphone jack.


The recording posted by PianoStartsat33 is the one I used to do the analysis. It contains no noise as you mention above. That means, if anyone who listens to the recording hears noise, they are mistaken, or the noise is coming from their playback equipment.

If you can hear the noise over the DP's speakers, just record the sound with your computer's mic. I can still analyze the basic sound differences between the EX and SK. To do so, please play three single notes in a row, separated by a one second space, each one about two seconds long. Do this for the EX and do the same procedure for the SK, all in one take.

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Originally Posted by Hoizmichl
I would love to record the noise for you, as I am absolutely sure we are not talking about overtones (at least I am not).
Problem is: the noise is not on WAV recordings done with the pianos own recorder and I have no cable at the moment to record directly from the headphone jack.
It's odd that you're not hearing it from the onboard recorder. So to be clear: you can hear it when playing either using headphones or the onboard speakers, but when you record it and play it back (either using the headphones or onboard speakers) you don't hear it? Or are you playing it back on your computer (with different speakers then)?


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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Hoizmichl
I would love to record the noise for you, as I am absolutely sure we are not talking about overtones (at least I am not).
Problem is: the noise is not on WAV recordings done with the pianos own recorder and I have no cable at the moment to record directly from the headphone jack.
It's odd that you're not hearing it from the onboard recorder. So to be clear: you can hear it when playing either using headphones or the onboard speakers, but when you record it and play it back (either using the headphones or onboard speakers) you don't hear it? Or are you playing it back on your computer (with different speakers then)?

I assume that the onboard recorder is simply taking the digitized samples, modifying them in accordance with the MIDI instructions sent by each note, and then feeding the data, without conversion, to the computer as a .wav file.

Is this how it is actually done? I am guessing, but it seems to eliminate any analogue circuitry that would cause an audible increase in noise.

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