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#2603606 01/12/17 12:29 PM
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This is going to sound like a silly question- what is sight reading exactly? Does it just mean read the music whilst playing the notes? Or read the notes on their own? Or maybe something else?

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As I understand it, what's asked of me during sight reading questions is to play a short passage as I see it in front of me. I'm given a few bars (more/more complicated at higher levels) and asked to play it right then and there. So you need to be able to read the notes, but also understand the key signature, time signature, dynamics, and other symbols. You have to put them together on the spot.

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I agree with Notori's description. In a sight reading test for ABRSM, you are given 30 seconds to look at a piece of music and then you play it for the examiner. You are graded on rhythm accuracy, note accuracy as well as how well you follow the dynamics indications. In the 30 seconds you need to discern the key signature, time signature, rhythm, and identify the difficult bits to play through before the test.

The most important thing is to keep going. You cannot go back and correct anything or lag in the rhythm. I think the purpose to to prepare the student for accompanying singers or other instruments. A side benefit is that once you get good at this, you can play at sight easier pieces for sing-a-longs, or just for your own enjoyment!

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Webster: "perform music without previous preparation or study". The rendition can be approximate, but not completely improvised smile

Some allow a few minutes of study before you start playing. I think that that is needed, so that you can at least determine the rhythm, key(s) and modulations, and maybe inspect a few hard parts.


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SwissMS #2603617 01/12/17 01:02 PM
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30 seconds- 😮😮😮

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The term sight-reading implies 'a prima vista', at first sight.

You're given 30 seconds for an exam piece but that's only a line or two in the early grades. Even at Grade 8 it's less than a full page.



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Interesting - I can invisige learning a line or two (maybe not 30 seconds)
I haven't really tried memorising notes yet but maybe I should start pushing myself a bit in this area

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No, the idea is that it's not memorised. Just scanned for key and time sig., prospective difficulties, etc. then played from sight.



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Not sure, but I think Wayne means memorizing the notes of the scale, not memorizing a piece prior to sight reading it, which, of course, is not sight reading, but rather the opposite.


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I'm just using the wrong terminology but I think I can see what you guys are saying- I think I need to practice sight reading then just in small increments at the moment-- try getting the balance right so as not to coast along but at the same time not be totally out of my depth

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I often have my students sight read a short phrase, or one or two measures. I use post-it notes to isolate them from the rest of the music. It can be a lot less intimidating then.


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Wayne, I wrote in your original thread about reading and reading skills specifically. Check it out, in case it is helpful at all. smile

SwissMS #2603719 01/12/17 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SwissMS
The most important thing is to keep going. You cannot go back and correct anything or lag in the rhythm. I think the purpose to to prepare the student for accompanying singers or other instruments.

That is indeed probably a main purpose. A very important point is that when acquiring reading skills such as recognizing notes and accurately relating these to the correct piano keys, this is not the kind of exercise you will want to do in the beginning. You want to get a firm connection to the notes, take all the time you need to establish it - what is needed for acquiring (prima vista) sight reading skills are the very things that will weaken the acquiring the underlying skills for reading. (imho)

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Originally Posted by Wayne2467
I'm just using the wrong terminology but I think I can see what you guys are saying- I think I need to practice sight reading then just in small increments at the moment-- try getting the balance right so as not to coast along but at the same time not be totally out of my depth

You can never sight-read too much music. But to be able to sight-read, first you must be able to relate the notes on the staves to the keys on the piano.

You probably don't remember what it was like when you started learning the alphabet (assuming English is your first language), and how that translated into whole words, and then whole sentences, such that you don't even look at individual letters any more when you read. I can remember, because I only started learning the Western alphabet when I was nearly ten, and it was quite a while before I could recognise letters instantly, and know how to say them, and quite a while longer before I could recognise whole words and how to pronounce them.

Learning to read music is in the same ball park. And the more you practise (and the more you enjoy your practising, such that it's fun - as when sight-reading enjoyable new pieces), the better you get.

For the vast majority of pianists (and musicians in general), sight-reading skills are far more important than the ability to memorise lots of stuff. If you can sight-read well, you can learn new pieces much more quickly, play a lot of music for fun, accompany, collaborate with other musicians etc. Whereas only solo concert pianists need to memorise - and how many of us are ever going to be that?

That's why sight-reading is an important part of the ABRSM exams, whereas memorising pieces don't figure in it at all.


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bennevis #2603779 01/12/17 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
... But to be able to sight-read, first you must be able to relate the notes on the staves to the keys on the piano.
....

Yes. I stressed this in the original thread on "reading" (skills) including some components for getting there.

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I've appreciated your comments in both these threads, Keystring. Sightreading comes up a lot as a topic, but reading not so much. Funny that. It's something I want very much to improve on. I think a significant part of my issue is in not reading patterns and intervals very well. On the teachers' forum, Morodiene mentioned using Frances Clark's Keyboard Musician for the Adult Beginner with her students, so I immediately ordered it (of course). It arrived last week and I am thrilled with it and its focus on intervals. I took it to my lesson yesterday and my teacher likes it a lot too and is going to buy it. Thank you again, Morodiene!


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Originally Posted by AprilE
I think a significant part of my issue is in not reading patterns and intervals very well.


Just reminded me of a lesson three and a half years ago when my then teacher gave me a small piece to sight read. I really struggled through it and at the time my brain could only think of one note at a time and I could not see patterns. When the torture was over she said have a closer look at the treble.....it was a C scale laugh


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Originally Posted by bennevis
For the vast majority of pianists (and musicians in general), sight-reading skills are far more important than the ability to memorise lots of stuff. If you can sight-read well, you can learn new pieces much more quickly, play a lot of music for fun, accompany, collaborate with other musicians etc. Whereas only solo concert pianists need to memorise - and how many of us are ever going to be that?
If you were talking about reading generally or the vast majority of professional pianists then I'd be easier about this but the ability to learn new pieces more quickly comes from reading and memorising more than sight-reading.

Sight-reading is a very particular skill but it's not nearly as important as reading the full text accurately. For most of us, especially those without ten years of tuition in their childhood, learning a new piece takes weeks to months getting the music into the fingers. There's absolutely no need to read any quicker than the fingers can learn the music.

It's also unwise to downplay the importance of memorising. If we're spending a month or so on a piece there'd be no progress without memory. Our reading doesn't get that much better in a month, it's our learning of the notes that drives progress. Learning implies memory. Memorising short phrases every day develops our ability to assimilate music better. Memorising rapidly is how we improve at sight-reading and memorising is crucial for rapid passages played faster than reading speed.

I accept the idea that memorising new pieces in order to avoid reading is not a good idea but avoiding memorising is equally counterproductive.

In order to play chess well we have to study the opening, the endgame, the middle game, the thinking process, master games, strategy and tactics. None of these should be neglected. Likewise with piano we have to learn to read, transpose, harmonise and memorise, play by ear, from the score, from memory and from the imagination. None of these should be neglected.



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Originally Posted by zrtf90
It's also unwise to downplay the importance of memorising. If we're spending a month or so on a piece there'd be no progress without memory.


I just experienced this! After about a month on Bach Invention no. 4 (which for some reason I found so much easier than no. 1), I suddenly realized that I was never going to bring it up to tempo and be able to perform it without memorising it. So I tried to play it without the score, et voilà - most of it was already in my memory. Now I know how to take it to the next level. Keeping my eyes on the score and trying to follow a piece like this is just too much for me; instead of helping, it's one more thing I need to pay attention to.

zrtf90 #2603931 01/13/17 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by bennevis
For the vast majority of pianists (and musicians in general), sight-reading skills are far more important than the ability to memorise lots of stuff. If you can sight-read well, you can learn new pieces much more quickly, play a lot of music for fun, accompany, collaborate with other musicians etc. Whereas only solo concert pianists need to memorise - and how many of us are ever going to be that?
If you were talking about reading generally or the vast majority of professional pianists then I'd be easier about this but the ability to learn new pieces more quickly comes from reading and memorising more than sight-reading.

No, memorising plays no part in learning new pieces, if you're talking learning the pieces to play from the score - as you would when learning pieces for ABRSM exams.

When I learn new pieces now - obviously not for exams -, I decide beforehand whether I'm going to memorise them (because I'm planning to perform them in my recitals). If I am, my learning process is different - I start the memorisation process right from the start. If not, I just keep learning it with the music in front of me, and looking at it constantly. Obviously, if I play it long enough, some parts of it get into muscle memory. And I might decide to consciously memorise a few tricky bars with fast leaps, just so I can concentrate on looking at my hands. But I never ever can play them complete from memory, because I never set out to memorise them in the first place.

And if I do decide eventually to memorise them after having learnt them, it will take almost as long to do so as if I was starting from scratch with a new piece. Which is why it's much better to decide right from the start, before I start learning it - do I want to memorise it, or not?

Quote
It's also unwise to downplay the importance of memorising. If we're spending a month or so on a piece there'd be no progress without memory. Our reading doesn't get that much better in a month, it's our learning of the notes that drives progress. Learning implies memory. Memorising short phrases every day develops our ability to assimilate music better. Memorising rapidly is how we improve at sight-reading and memorising is crucial for rapid passages played faster than reading speed.

No, I'm a poor memoriser, but I learn pieces fairly quickly - because I'm a fast reader, simply because I've sight-read through volumes of stuff in my student years, when I had access to the school music library (no need for that these days, with the internet and IMSLP, of course).

BTW, when I say I learn pieces quickly, I don't mean memorising them.....

And I see no point in 'memorising short phrases every day' - that's what I do only if I'm planning to perform from memory. Not if I'm just learning. It would be an absolute waste of time.

And no, learning something doesn't imply memorising - unless you're talking muscle memory which happens when you repeat something often enough. Anything from driving a car to swimming to.....playing a musical instrument. But muscle memory only takes you so far and, as far as music is concerned, it's not just a series of 'learned movements' when it comes to playing from memory.

I think you're broadening your definition of memorising too far, because much of what you're describing is simply learning. Learning to walk, learning to talk etc. But a good talker (with the 'gift of the gab') is not necessarily a good memoriser (of verse etc).

Quote
I accept the idea that memorising new pieces in order to avoid reading is not a good idea but avoiding memorising is equally counterproductive.

In order to play chess well we have to study the opening, the endgame, the middle game, the thinking process, master games, strategy and tactics. None of these should be neglected. Likewise with piano we have to learn to read, transpose, harmonise and memorise, play by ear, from the score, from memory and from the imagination. None of these should be neglected.


I was a competitive chess player at school and university, taking part in many tournaments, and was a county junior champion. Playing chess is totally different from learning a musical instrument. (Mark Taimanov was one of a kind). You have to memorise lots of openings and their intricacies for a start, otherwise you'll be lost from the opening if your opponent surprises you. Or else you take so much time on the clock trying to figure out things that you lose on time.

With musical instruments, none of that applies. Three of my four teachers never memorised any piece in their entire lives (and they all have teaching diplomas). They frequently accompanied instrumentalists, but never performed solo, so they never needed to play from memory. My last teacher was a concert pianist, but he only memorised the pieces he was performing solo, never the ones where he was accompanying/partnering others - which is basically the same as what I do now.

And no, you don't need to transpose, harmonise, play by ear, play 'from the imagination' etc if your interest is purely classical piano, unless you want to. In fact, there's no point in 'practising' transposition unless you're into accompanying singers, or playing jazz. I've only ever transposed 'on the fly' at the piano a few times in my life, and that was when accompanying singers in carol concerts. With harmonisation and playing by ear, if you develop good aural skills and learn theory, that comes easily. That's why I'm a fan of the ABRSM exams for all serious students - you can't skip those bits.

I think people should prioritise what they want to do. IMO, memorising pieces should be low down on the list - if it's on the list at all. Scales & arpeggios - yes, because they occur so frequently in so many contexts, that it speeds up reading immensely if they're completely in your memory. By all means, memorise a few pieces if you want to be able to perform them anywhere, but don't waste time memorising every piece you learn. The ability to sight-read - and good reading skills in general - is far more important for most musicians, amateur or professional.

N.B.: All I said above is in relation to classical music. If you play jazz etc, you may have different priorities.



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