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Does anyone have a recommendation for a good book on understanding the shape of the sonata and sonatina forms?

This is not for the purposes of theory & composition, but for piano-playing: to have a good understanding of the overall narrative that a classical sonata will take, and so be able to express it better in practice & performance.

If you want a different take from the standard "sonata form" and triadic harmony approach try:

https://www.amazon.com/Music-Galant-Style-Robert-Gjerdingen/dp/0195313712

1- The "theory and composition" route is by the far the most practically useful route for the pianist to use as an interpretive tool.

2- Sonata form is one of the most powerful and flexible forms ever conceived. No single description will help you understand all the things it can do or express, except in a very limited way that ends up being very unhelpful.

3- It is clear from your remark that you don't really understand the "theory and composition" route as a useful tool for yourself. Such a pity! Stick with it until you do.

There is a bunch, 200+ years, of pseudo-musical/intellectual garbage written about musical forms that is long on persiflage and opium, and incredibly short on any common sense or useful tidbits. Avoid it until you understand what the theorists and composers are saying. You will, of course, by that time be saying the same thing I'm saying. Which is exactly my point.

It looks to me like you're asking the question in a misleading way.

It seems that what you want to know about is, the overall form of pieces that are called "sonatas" and "sonatinas."

That's not "sonata form"!
"Sonata form" is the form of certain kinds of movements.
Most 1st movements of sonatas (and sonatinas and symphonies) are in this form; many other movements also.

But the overall form of a sonata (or sonatina) is a different thing.

Which thing are you asking about?

If it were me having the question, what I'd do is go to YouTube, search on "sonata form" and start to watch the first twenty or so videos that came up. I'd not finish watching the ones that were obviously lame and amateurish, but I'd watch the rest all the way through. There is some good learning material there, I think, and it is coming from a variety of angles, which is helpful.

Also, to my way of thinking, the essentials of the subject matter are going to be the same regardless of whether you are wanting to learn it for composition or for performance.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what he's describing, which of course is possible, that would only give him stuff other than what he's wondering about.

The Classical Style, by Charles Rosen

laguna_greg,

1. You are right.

2. I think you misunderstand my intention. I don't want to "understand all the things it can do or express", but to understand its basic form a little better. Maybe that will come with more advanced grades/levels of piano, since theory is a requirement for those grades/levels. Still, I wasn't asking for anything like that.

3. To be honest, I said I wasn't asking from a theory/composition standpoint not because I dismiss it as a tool for myself, but because if I had been asking from that standpoint, this thread might've been moved to the Composers' Lounge, which seems to be inactive... so I posted here with the hopes of lots of replies.

It's funny that you said "such a pity" so quickly. I don't think my post betrayed even a shadow of where my goals, desires, and studying are directed. It was just a simple question, after all.

Of course, this isn't about rules; it's about a language, which one learns to communicate in. That is music...

Mark_C, Isn't it a bit pedantic to distinguish between "pieces called sonatas" and "sonata-allegro form"? Scarlatti's sonatas are in sonata form. I suppose my question was unclear, though, about a 4-movement work called a "piano sonata" vs a sonata-allegro movement, but I was not being intentionally misleading. I'm referring to the self-contained structure of one movement.

wr, YouTube was indeed my first resource, but I prefer something that I can hold in my hands.

Scarlatti's Sonatas are not in sonata form.

They're in binary form, which is the common form for Baroque music.

That's why it's important to distinguish between Sonata Form and sonata.

(And 'son of a sonata', as per Mr Borge...... ).

Thank you for the clarification bennevis. I showed my ignorance...

When I read that book, many years ago, it seemed interesting and reading it was worthwhile, but it was rather hard to absorb. Maybe I should pull it off the shelf and try slogging through it again - sometimes books seem very different on rereading after some years.

I can't believe I am going to say this, but if the OP just wants a general idea of what Sonata Form is, then "just Google it", compare seven sources, and take away the common threads among them all. If any of the sources have anything that is way out there from the general consensus, then that would require further investigation.

If you really, really want to dig deep into it, then "Theory & Composition" is the route you need to take, and people are still writing new and interesting ideas on musical forms.

I am extremely thrilled that the OP wants to apply this knowledge to their piano playing. It's impossible to bring one's playing to "the next level" (well, even early levels) without knowing what the heck it is that you are playing in the first place...

Another Rosen book is Sonata Forms. I bought a copy many years ago but never did more than skim it; perhaps I should take another look.

I think the fact that you're asking this seems to mean that indeed what you're wondering about is something other than exactly what you said, because these things are completely different....

ICW - Print these out and you'll pretty much have what you need to get started.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/41294/Outline-of-Sonata-Form

https://www.scribd.com/document/7742340/Symphony-No-40-Visual-Analysis

https://www.scribd.com/doc/41292/Mozart-Symphony-No-40

Then look at the 1st movement of Mozart's K545 sonata, for example, and see if you can determine the form yourself. Be aware, however, that you will USUALLY find slight variations to the basic formula in any classical sonata SA movement - so be prepared for a few surprises.

Carey: Please see the post above yours.

(Those things that you gave him aren't about what he's wanting to know.)

No love for the "program notes" form and analysis writings of Donald Tovey, I assume. (I've never read him. 😀)

https://music.ku.edu/form-analysis
Davie: Musical Structure and Design (Covers forms in various movements of a sonata, not just "1st mvt. sonata-allegro form.")

Mark - Actually I think it is - but perhaps we should let him make that determination.

The OP said to you: "I suppose my question was unclear, though, about a 4-movement work called a "piano sonata" vs a sonata-allegro movement, but I was not being intentionally misleading. I'm referring to the self-contained structure of one movement."

From this I gathered that he simply wants to understand the basic SA form used in the classical era.

OK!

Do you own a copy of "The New Harvard Dictionary Of Music" edited by Don Randel?
(A handy and fun book to have in the bookcase)

Randel dedicated 8 - 10 pages to the Sonata, including form and history. You may find some of the material enlightening.