2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
27 members (clothearednincompo, CyberGene, bluebilly, euphoria, busa, Burkey, Freddo, Frédéric L, fatar760, 5 invisible), 1,016 guests, and 476 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Hi there,

This is my first post and I'm not sure if I'm posting it in the right subforum, so please, if you're a moderator and you can move it to the right location it would be great smile

I'm Jesús from Wavesfactory. I develop sample libraries for Kontakt and audio plugins.

Back in November, I flew to London to record the Freddie Mercury's personal Fazioli Grand Piano at Metropolis Studio A.
Before actually recording it, I wanted to be sure of what people were expecting from a library like this. Since I'm a huge Freddie's fan and this was the biggest and most ambitious project that I have ever done I wanted to get it just right. So I did a survey with 10 questions, some technical and some non-technical: how many velocity layers, how many mic positions, how many round robins, what do you think that lacks in most piano libraries, what's the best piano library you've heard and so on.
At the end, I had a pretty good image of how to approach the recording. 6 mic positions: ultraclose, close, vintage mono, player perspective, mid and far.
There was a problem with the player perspective so I had to drop that down. 5 mic positions when most piano libraries have only 1 to 3 at the most.
8 velocity layers, checked.
4 round robin with optional neighbour borrowing, checked.

Here you have a preview of me playing the actual piano at the studio.
https://soundcloud.com/wavesfactory/mercury

And this is the library itself after all the editing, programming and scripting.
Note: all mics at 0dB, no effects.
https://soundcloud.com/wavesfactory/mercury-1

Since this project started with lots of feedback from the community, it should continue to be the same until its release. I care a lot about this so feel free to post whatever you feel like.

I'll be posting more technical demos like staccatos and velocity testing on different keys.

The design is done and it's fantastic.
As a side note, this library will be a Kontakt Player one, no need for the full version of Kontakt.

I would like you to send some feedback in order to improve the library to make it just perfect.

Can't wait to read your comments smile
[Linked Image]

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,029
P

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014
1000 Post Club Member
Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014
1000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,029
Greetings,
Piano seems to lack overtones even when played with moderately firm keystrokes in the middle of the scale, to my ears.

Best wishes-


phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Toccata (G minor) BWV 915
(and trying not to forget the other stuff I know)
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,430

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by phacke
Greetings,
Piano seems to lack overtones even when played with moderately firm keystrokes in the middle of the scale, to my ears.

Best wishes-


Interesting observation. Someone here posted the other day that Faziolis are engineered to produce fewer overtones. I don't know if that's true, but it seems consistent with the above.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by phacke
Greetings,
Piano seems to lack overtones even when played with moderately firm keystrokes in the middle of the scale, to my ears.

Best wishes-

Is this behaviour on both demos? In that case, that's how the actual piano sounds and there isn't much I can do.

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,430

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,430
Originally Posted by Wavesfactory
Originally Posted by phacke
Greetings,
Piano seems to lack overtones even when played with moderately firm keystrokes in the middle of the scale, to my ears.

Best wishes-

Is this behaviour on both demos? In that case, that's how the actual piano sounds and there isn't much I can do.


If the "Engineering" observation is accurate, then that's probably the way it should sound.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 576
P
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 576
Originally Posted by Wavesfactory


There's some strange low level hiss gating on and off in the background, otherwise, it sounds very good.

Paul.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,952
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,952
This piano came to him quite late in his career (obviously since the factory only started producing in 1982 or something and Freddie died in 1991), so it would be interesting to know which recordings Freddie Mercury used it on. I know he left it to the studio after he died, and it's still used there to this day. It would be interesting to hear for a comparison.

It's a cool project, Freddie would be tickled pink I'm sure.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,534
M
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,534
Clarity without noise...I like it!

Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 477
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 477
Regarding the engineering of Fazioli pianos this is a quote from Stephen Hough who had one for a while:

"I'm afraid I sold it a couple of years after buying it. The Fazioli is a beautifully designed instrument with many positive qualities, particularly a long sustain and a powerful, clean treble. But for me, its sound is a little monochrome and lacking in complexity of overtones. It's actually part of the Fazioli design that the sympathetic part of the upper strings can be tuned. This results in an exact, pure note, but for most Romantic repertoire, I want the rich complexity of overtones. Too pure a note can sound synthetic and thin. Bach and much contemporary music works wonderfully on the Fazioli but in Chopin, Debussy, etc. I don't like it at all. I'm much more excited by the newer Yamahas, which I'm seeing. I just made two CDs on one and it was glorious."

Great project by the way. I love Faziolis, thanks for sharing this. I think the early Faziolis have had a few design changes to produce the current range but that's a very foggy memory of something I read once. Freddy's one is quite possibly an early model, it's certainly from the early days of Fazioli production as Joe mentioned.

Last edited by DiarmuidD; 05/27/16 06:20 PM.
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by pyropaul
Originally Posted by Wavesfactory


There's some strange low level hiss gating on and off in the background, otherwise, it sounds very good.

Paul.

This is actually the sustain pedal releasing the damper on the strings. That's controllable from the GUI (settings menu):
[Linked Image]

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
R
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 4
Does the library support Variable Sustain, Sostenuto, and Soft Pedals?

Just noticing the settings UI, very clean and concise. A nice addition being able to control the min & max velocity samples within the library UI. Also appears we can control the overall hammer hardness and attack?

Looking forward to more demos.

Kind regards,
Rick Tucker

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by joe80
This piano came to him quite late in his career (obviously since the factory only started producing in 1982 or something and Freddie died in 1991), so it would be interesting to know which recordings Freddie Mercury used it on. I know he left it to the studio after he died, and it's still used there to this day. It would be interesting to hear for a comparison.

It's a cool project, Freddie would be tickled pink I'm sure.

In fact, Metropolis Studios opened in 1989. Queen did record "Innuendo" and "Made In Heaven" there. "Headlong" video was recorded there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhyaAPsT1LU

Unfortunately, there is not a piano driven song in that albums... except for "It's a Beautiful Day". "My Life Has Been Saved" and "Let Me Live" also feature a piano but I think they come from older recordings from 1988 (The Miracle) and 1982. Who knows, maybe they re-recorded the pianos too and they used this beautiful Fazioli.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3LcpCTiy-w

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by rtucker55
Does the library support Variable Sustain, Sostenuto, and Soft Pedals?

Just noticing the settings UI, very clean and concise. A nice addition being able to control the min & max velocity samples within the library UI. Also appears we can control the overall hammer hardness and attack?

Looking forward to more demos.

Kind regards,
Rick Tucker

Yes smile

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,952
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,952
Diarmuid, it would have to be an early model because it would have to have come from the first 5 to 8 years of Fazcoli's production. While I don't know what design changes have taken place with Fazioli over the 30 years they've been producing, I do know that many pianists in the first ten years were brimming with praise for the instrument, Freddie Mercury being just one of many. Actually I didn't know he owned a Fazioli until very recently. His PA told me that he had a Yamaha at home, and of course if you watch any concert of Queen from the 1980s he's using a NYC Steinway that looks like it came through both wars on the front line!

There is a video somewhere of Tatiana Nikolayeva playing a Fazioli in a recital somewhere in Europe, dating from around 1988 (she died in 1992), and Angela Hewitt has used them for at least 25 years now.

I agree with Hough's description of the sound of a Fazioli, but I don't agree that it's unsuited to the romantic repertoire. In a funny way Blüthner and Fazioli share a lot in terms of purity of tone, although they're coming at it from completely different angles, and Bösendorfer too is a very pure sound but perhaps not as crystalline as Fazioli. The thing about the romantic period is that there were so many different kinds of pianos kicking around, from the straight strung Grafs, Erards, Pleyels of the earlier part, to the larger iron-barred Broadwoods (still straight strung), right through to instruments resembling our modern concert grands that I feel (just a gut feeling) that while piano music was probably written with an ideal sound in mind (varying from composer to composer and decade to decade), everyone knew their music would be performed on all sorts of pianos varying in quality.

Anyway sorry to completely derail the thread with that little nugget of guff there. Jesùs, just because the studio opened in '89 we don't know if Freddie bought the piano in '89 or if the piano was made in '89. Is it a full concert grand or is it a smaller grand? I think you've done a fairly good job in capturing the piano, of course you're going to go back and refine it, and I can't tell the exact quality of the tone through my computer's speakers. What keyboard do you find works best with the sample?

I'll go and dig out my old Queen albums now.

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
Fazioli concert grands, F278 and F308 have gone through at least 2 major changes in the design of the plate, with countless, continuing improvements and changes.

The biggest change perhaps is between the first and the second generation, in the late 1990s. In the first generation, there were four segments, each with roughly 20-25 notes.

Here's the first generation plate:

http://www.weschenfelder.eu/images/product_images/popup_images/127_5.JPG

Here's the second generation plate:

http://www.fazioli.com/sites/default/files/f278-04.jpg

And the third generation plate:

http://europianosnaples.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/RAN_8614.jpg

The plate until the late 1990s have four segments. I don't know whether the scale design actually changed, but subsequent ones have 5 segments.

Design improvements are being made constantly, and it is fair to say that no two Faziolis are alike. Yet, it is remarkable that they are far more consistent from one to another compared to other manufacturers.

Last edited by Ken Iisaka; 05/27/16 07:33 PM.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 477
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 477
Thanks for that Ken, that's very interesting.

Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by joe80
Jesús, just because the studio opened in '89 we don't know if Freddie bought the piano in '89 or if the piano was made in '89. Is it a full concert grand or is it a smaller grand?

What I heard (not 100% sure) is that the studio needed a grand piano and, since they had Freddie Mercury there, they asked him what piano did he want. And he said that one in particular, so he hand picked it. But you're right, we don't know if it was older.
It's a Fazioli F228.

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,952
J
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,952
Originally Posted by Wavesfactory
Originally Posted by joe80
Jesús, just because the studio opened in '89 we don't know if Freddie bought the piano in '89 or if the piano was made in '89. Is it a full concert grand or is it a smaller grand?

What I heard (not 100% sure) is that the studio needed a grand piano and, since they had Freddie Mercury there, they asked him what piano did he want. And he said that one in particular, so he hand picked it. But you're right, we don't know if it was older.
It's a Fazioli F228.


Did Freddie actually buy the piano? Or did the studio buy it? Good choice though!

Diarmuid, I meant to ask you, are you a recording engineer?


Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
W
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
W
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by joe80

Did Freddie actually buy the piano? Or did the studio buy it? Good choice though!

No idea... sorry!

By the way, here I leave you two velocity tests. The first one was done yesterday and the feedback was that, although the volume increases, you can still definitely hear how the velocity layers change abruptly.
https://soundcloud.com/wavesfactory/mercury-velocitytest

Now, I've introduced a seamlessly morph filter between the velocity layers so you shouldn't notice where the edges are. Does this sound better to you?
https://soundcloud.com/wavesfactory/velocity-test-2

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Nocturne Sounds developing new upright VI
by newer player - 06/19/21 01:50 AM
Roland fp-30X vs fp30 keybed noise level
by netcom61 - 06/19/21 01:40 AM
Scriabin and Rachmaninoff on the Yamaha S7X.
by Sonepica - 06/19/21 12:57 AM
SOS I’m Feeling Scattered
by PianogrlNW - 06/19/21 12:10 AM
Why Liszt - Polonaise No. 1 is Underrated
by Batuhan - 06/18/21 10:25 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics207,595
Posts3,105,045
Members101,852
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5