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Buying and selling are 2 different things. If I want to make a gross profit margin of 50% then I mark anything up 100%. Of course that is not my net profit margin, which is what feeds the family.

I would be interested to hear the other side of this story.


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Originally Posted by Bach48
Do I just ship it out to CA, stick it in my house and let it adjust for a few months or years? Who exactly will, 'FIX' this piano?


Cross country shipping is a three step process. A local piano mover in the city of origin knocks the grand down and takes it to a local dealer or other transfer point, from which it gets picked up by the long distance mover. The long distance company drops it at a dealer near you, from whence the local mover on your end picks it up and takes it to your house.

Given where you live, the first place to ask would be Living Pianos in Santa Ana. They're a dealer, they rebuild core pianos, and they ship nationwide. You could get the L shipped to their shop where they could evaluate it, and if it makes economic sense, do the work.

Steinways are almost always worth rebuilding, but if the previous guy messed up badly on the board, what you have may be just a plate and case.



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Originally Posted by Bach48
Rickster, tell me about it!

I want to know what you paid for it, come on Rick break my heart. Probably everyone else here wants to know too! I hear you have more than several grands in your home, is this true or just a urban legend? No, not you, your pianos.

Well, if I told you what I paid for it (the C7), it would only make you feel worse. smile

And, I certainly do not want to do that...

Also, if I divulged what I paid for it (from a large church transitioning to all digital pianos) and decided to sell it later on (which is doubtful), others here would think I was a crook for asking more than I paid.

Also, the piano needed some work, (but not a lot) which is one of the reasons I got it for a reasonable price; plus, it is an older model (1978) but in really good condition.

I have mentioned what I paid for the C7 to a few members here via PM and to one of the worlds top concert piano technicians (Sally Phillips), who tuned, voiced and regulated it for me a few years ago (and did a superb job). Like, Seeker, I too am somewhat of an amateur piano tech, but no where near the skill level of Sally.

I also have a Baldwin R, a Howard/Kawai 550 (5'10") and a Kawai 48" upright. I plan on giving the Howard/Kawai to my 12 year old granddaughter, whenever my son can find room in his house; it's (Howard/Kawai) actually in like new condition and plays and sounds great!

Wish I could be of more help with your piano dilemma. smile

Rick

P.S. as far as me, (and my pianos) being an urban legend, I'm afraid I'm known here on PW as somewhat of a back-woods-hillbilly unorthodox piano player; but I do have a music video on YouTube with well over a million views. You just never know what people will like, for better or worse. smile


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Retsacnal,

You are right on all accounts, and thank you for reading the entire thread and paying such close attention!

1. The MIL told me back in 2006, she couldn't play it anymore because it was too hard. Not because she didn't like the sound. She also said it's because I'm old, and your a lot younger so you'll be able to play it. I spent a fortune getting it all redone, isn't it beautiful? She's in her late 80's now and they have been out of the house away from the piano since 2011. So she doesn't remember how awful the piano really is. She just remembers she had it all redone and how wonderful, just the keys were hard to play in her mind because she's become more frail! She waxes on about it now! How wonderful, my mothers piano, I spent a fortune getting it perfect, isn't it a beautiful Steinway? I'm going to give it to you so it can stay in the family. Isn't it just wonderful?

2. Yes, in my haste to try and get this out on paper, ( the call from the MIL, the call to the dealer who gave me the guys phone number, calling the guy to find out what's going on, the perdicament all happened within a couple weeks. I panicked and I left out the dealer part because I was writing Bout how upset I was when they came to take my C6. So sorry about that, yes a mistake and my apologies to all the posters here for sticking up for me.

3. When I called the dealer, a girl answers and agrees to look up who they sold it to, gives me his number and I call him. She was obviously new, and yes, I was really lucky she didn't know better to try and broker a sale.

4. When I had played the piano before the 2006 overhaul, I'm pretty sure it had ivory keys, but I'm not completely positive. But I had a weird feeling about it. So that's why I think he may have taken them. Then I did ask the forum, did 1937 come with ivories? Because I don't know that answer. The keys are now even looking, so I think they're new regardless.

So, no you are not crazy, yes I tried to put the story in chronological order, and didn't nail that, again I am sorry for the confusion, and I'm still upset about this perdicament.


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Pamela, to make things small again that other posters made big (IMHO)... I understood that you don't like this Steinway and / or don't like Steinways in general. If true, don't go for a Steinway, find yourself a grand that you really like.

I really hope that you will be able to get there with all the other 'stakeholders'...

I know what it is to play an instrument that does not bring what you like!

All the best,
Hans


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It's like saying to a person, ( a guy) I know you don't like her and you never have ( the L) but maybe you could fall in love with her,(the L) if she has a few cosmetic things done?

Face Lift
Nose job
Boob job
Eye job
Drop some weight
Walk straight
Talk in a sultry voice
Look like a Modle
Doesn't talk too much
Isn't annoying


Well could you fall in love with this person when every single time you've met her before she had all the 'upgrades' she's never been your type?

Well, she's changed she's a different person now... Really? I suppose I'd have to meet her again with all the 'upgraded' and spend time with her, 'marry' her, meaning live with her in my house. I'm not sure that's possible.

Hence my dilemma. Ok, just tell me exactly what you posters would actually do. Date her for a while, that could get very expensive, ditch her do you look like an ungrateful person, marry her, like a freakin arranged marriage? Marry her of your own volition? Get divorced? This situation is pretty crazy making... But it's only been a couple of weeks since the MIL called.




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Originally Posted by Bach48
4. When I had played the piano before the 2006 overhaul, I'm pretty sure it had ivory keys, but I'm not completely positive. But I had a weird feeling about it. So that's why I think he may have taken them.


If you ship it cross country, not having the original ivory may be a good thing. The elephant protection lobby is getting some draconian legislation pushed through. Check the sticky thread, there's a state that may criminalize possession of any ivory no matter how old.



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Originally Posted by Bach48
Ok, just tell me exactly what you posters would actually do.

I think we already have... smile

But I'll give it another try.

Talk to the spouse first; next, tell the MIL you really appreciate the offer of the Steinway L and you wish you could take it and be happy with it, but if she (the MIL) can't even play it in its current state, how does she expect you to be able to play it and enjoy it? So, now the foundation has been laid for the next statement.

Tell the MIL that you and their son would be eternally grateful if they would agree to allow you to sell the Steinway or trade it in toward another piano that you prefer to own long-term. But you would only agree to that with their blessing.

So, there you have it... smile

Of course, that's just my second .02.

Rick


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Originally Posted by Bach48
Ok, just tell me exactly what you posters would actually do.
Is there no other immediate family member they could offer it to so that they could feel good about keeping it in the family?

You've already bought one Steinway that you obviously liked at the time of purchase but, after having it worked on, couldn't get happy with it. The Yamaha you loved, but it may be a different piano now or at a price you aren't comfortable paying. This Steinway's true potential is currently unknown if the tech really didn't do justice to the restore.

I wish someone was offering me a Steinway to keep as a family heirloom.

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Bach48
Really you have gotten many varied suggestions on how to proceed... ranging from 'take it, sell it, don't tell', to 'have it inspected, see if it can meet your liking or not' to 'don't try to fix it, don't take it, but tell'.... and every variation in between.

You have many available options.... offered from the viewpoint of many different posters.
At this point, can anyone here make a decision for you and 'tell you what to do?' I think the decision now is very personal, and you have all the possible options, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Bach48
It's like saying to a person, ( a guy) I know you don't like her and you never have ( the L) but maybe you could fall in love with her,(the L) if she has a few cosmetic things done?

Face Lift
Nose job
Boob job
Eye job
Drop some weight
Walk straight
Talk in a sultry voice
Look like a Modle
Doesn't talk too much
Isn't annoying


Well could you fall in love with this person when every single time you've met her before she had all the 'upgrades' she's never been your type?

Well, she's changed she's a different person now... Really? I suppose I'd have to meet her again with all the 'upgraded' and spend time with her, 'marry' her, meaning live with her in my house. I'm not sure that's possible.

Hence my dilemma. Ok, just tell me exactly what you posters would actually do. Date her for a while, that could get very expensive, ditch her do you look like an ungrateful person, marry her, like a freakin arranged marriage? Marry her of your own volition? Get divorced? This situation is pretty crazy making... But it's only been a couple of weeks since the MIL called.
Unless you don't like Steinways in general, in which case there's not much to discuss(either take it and sell it or don't take it), the analogy is very wrong. You don't know yet if the Steinway can be made more and maybe much more to your liking. Until you know that, everything is speculation. It could be a simple fix or virtually impossible or anything in between.

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It's a tough decision, I feel being too honest to a couple in their late 80s could be hurtful, after all they mean well and just want to give you something they feel is lovely. Honesty isn't always the best policy, there is room in life for the odd white lie to spare someones feelings. How that point of view translates in your situation only you know. In short, I would take the Steinway, keep it for a while, get a good tech to do their best with it and ultimately if you don't like it sell it on and get a c6 or c7.

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I owned a Steinway model M, I had it worked on until the technician said to me, this will never be able to create the sound you are looking for, or be what you want it to be. So that's when I traded my Steinway model M in for the Yamaha C6.

The Steinways I have liked have been mostly bigger pianos, but far and few between. One poster said the Yamaha C6 is the closest in sound to a Steinway as any in their line up.

My C6 was a very special piano. I still can't believe I sold it. I should have just stored it and taken the risk of it being ruined. But I didn't. I also never knew there was humidified storage available. A hard lesson learned. Ouch!

There is a thread on this forum that addresses this specific issue:
#1949091 - 08/25/12 06:02 PM Is the Yamaha C6 an unusual piano. jawhitti Offline Full Member Registered:
08/01/12

This perdicament is like someone giving you a beautiful Maserati that looks great, but doesn't drive well, the engine is not to your liking, or worse yet it doesn't fit you when you go sit in the drivers seat. It's uncomfortable and you don't know how to make it a better fit or feel. Yes, it's a free Maserati, but if no matter what you do to the engine still doesn't purr, and/or you still can't make the seat feel comfortable enough so you can drive by Rev Matching,( that's when you are so in tune with your car that you can drive by the seat of your pants so you don't even need to use the clutch to switch gears, and it drives like a dream because you become part of the car. This is what we're talking about here. Yes, it's a very nice sportscar, but they are not all created equally. I have a Honda S2000 two seater convertable that is built on a formula one engine and she's fun to drive, i really enjoy taking her out for a spin. I take good care of her, she suites me. I always take good care of my cars inside and out. They are high performance machines. Mine still looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor, and people say this to me.

A piano, I wouldn't dream of having it tuned only once a year. I tune every quarter, I believe a performance piano needs and deserves it. I need it to sing its little heart out. Old or new doesn't matter to me, it's how it feels and sounds and what I can bring out of it or what the instrument allows me to put into it.

My physician was the royal families personal physician years ago and the queen mother loved her so much, she gave her, her Broadwood! Seriously no joke. My physician is a concert pianist. At some point she decided to buy herself a bosi, a Ferrari as she so aptly calls it. Well now she's hard pressed to play the broadwood anymore that the bosi is in the next room. She's keeping the Broadwood because it was a gift from the queen mum AND she has room for both.

I only have room for one grand piano in my house. I know I like the sound, that so far, only the bigger pianos with longer bass strings make. A couple more inches of piano definitely makes a difference, example: the dealer I went to just a few weeks ago luckily had the C2x C3x C5x C6x C7x on their floor and I played one after the other. I played in order, I played out of order skipping around. People tell me the size of the piano doesn't matter,it's the sound, well yes, but I beg to differ. The sound I like and want comes from larger concert grands, smaller sized pianos just can't make the same sounds, they are just not physically able to, don't have the capacity. Hence my frustration and disappointment with my Steinway M. I spent thousands trying to, 'fix' it, but to no avail. I am very loyal but In the end I had to give up my M and trade it in because I just couldn't take it any more.

But look, out of thoes ashes came a huge gift to me, the C6. BTW the dealer where I bought the M was a Steinway dealer so I was playing B''s right next to the C6. I sat down to play the C6 and I knew it from day one. Im pretty sure all the Steinways were well prepared and they sounded good, but the C6, (and maybe it's just this particular C6) was one of the better sounding instruments to me and it fit me when I sat down. I'm not sure how to actually explane this. Because when you sit down at pianos they're pretty much all the same. Your on a bench, not an artist bench, which effects your playing. The right height and angle makes a difference. And your facing a keyboard with 88 notes and usually 48 gram weighted keys all tuned to A440. Although some keys are slimmer or beveled or slipperyer, so keys don't all feel the same either. A lot of this stuff is pretty inexplicable. Because even how you feel the keys under your fingers matters, well to me at least anyway.

Ok, here's another thing. I'm a Honda girl, I've always had Hondas accords because they just fit me. Along comes my sweet charming gentleman of a husband,( he opens doors for me and even opens the car door for me all the time) who decides he wants to keep me safer on the crazy freeways out here so that if I'm ever in an accident I don't get, as he says, "squashed like a grape" He declares I'm basically driving a tin can Hes referring to my accord. I reluctantly agree, but he's right.So we go out and find an suv. Yes, I feel safer but it's a lot of car for me, i like that it sits up higher so I cN see further ahead and I do feel safer.

Maybe I'm just not a Steinway person? I've had 2 not so good experiences with Steinways my M and her L. Both never sounded great to me. But then again they both didn't have great mechanics!! Maybe great mechanics could make a difference. I bought the M when I didn't know it couldn't become what I wanted it to be. Still stuck between a rock and a Steinway.


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I understand and totally agree that the L will never have the bass of a c6. You are right the c6 compares more readily to a Steinway model B and they aren't a million miles apart. Yes they are different, but each has a lot to like, as indeed does a well prepared Steinway L. I almost got a c6, s6 or c7, they are great pianos. I am just suggesting an openminded and diplomatic route (clue: I do ultimately think you will end up with a Yamaha ;)).

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I'm actually praying 🙏for angels 😇😇😇😇and divine intervention❤️❤️❤️❤️


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For what it's worth, I've only played two Steinways in my life that I loved. One was a D at a competition, and the other was an immaculately prepped B at my college. I played a bunch of Steinways recently (both new and rebuilt) and none of them did anything for me. I played a Yamaha C6X for a couple of minutes at a store in another city before they were going to have a concert, and my reaction was "this is really nice!". I wish I could have had more time with it. The local store had a C5X and it didn't grab me like that C6X.

So, I'm completely spoiled: I bought a lightly played 15-year old Bosendorfer 225 because I fell in love with a new one that still haunts me when I think about it. That piano understood me. From my search, I thought that a good tech could adjust the touch and perhaps the tone to be like the new one. It's an ongoing saga but my conclusion is that there is irreversible voicing doing by my first tech (deep needling in the bass which made it lose some of its power), one stubborn hammer that keeps reverting to harshness in days no matter how many times it's voiced, and general wear to the action that I just need to live with until I replace the hammers and action down the road. I like my piano quite a lot but we don't have a magical connection yet (hopefully the touch will improve after it gets a full regulation next week)! And sometimes I so badly want that connection because I've experienced it with a handful of other pianos in my life and know how it could be. Sometimes I wonder if the C6X would have grabbed me the same way, or if we could somehow have made the new 225 happen (it was a lot of money, but much less than one would think due to the low Euro). So I understand how you feel, and lord knows I feel ungrateful when I have these thoughts because I have a piano most people could only dream of! But I have the most beautiful piano I've seen in my life and even with the things I mentioned it's enjoyable to play, so I just tell myself that in ten years my tech will replace the parts and I'll find what I was looking for all this time.

My two cents: you're going to be miserable if you take the Steinway and then spend tons of money and energy to try to make it better and probably never getting there because you're very particular. But you already know this. Find a piano you love in its current state and you'll never look back. Your problem is figuring out how to graciously decline the Steinway.


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Mr Meeeyow,

Yes, you get it and thank you so much for sharing your story with the rest of us. I am particular, I need a connection with my pianos my cars my animals anything I have to share my house my living space with etc. a piano isn't just a piano to me, forget about romanticism for a moment. I seriously need a piano that fits, a piano that I can work with intimately and grow to love more and more. I was not kidding about taking naps under my C6 when I first bought it. I cannot play a nice regular piano, it has to speak to me. I'm sure many people like their pianos but they could probably like most other pianos too. This is different, it just is. I can't love a piano that doesn't have a commanding bass. I just can't love a piano that might be ok, mediocre, so so, alright, good enough, nice, pretty, sounds good, plays ok, etc.

I don't want a substitute for something I know I can find, or will find someday. I want to love my piano, not have hope for my piano like I did all thoes wasted years with the M.

I don't even understand how concert pianists can play all sorts of different pianos at different venues. I know even if they're well prepared, the moment a crowd fills in the seats the temperature rises and the tuning can go. I'm sure I'm difficult in a sense but I know what I don't like. This is like saying I know what I don't want for dinner. Ok, that's good, I can give you a whole list. but it doesn't tell you what I do want for dinner. It's hard to put what I do like into words. I just know when I hear and feel it. It resonates with me it feels right. Even if I'm only playing scales, the scales are beautiful to play hear and practice. I want to play, the piano calls me to come play it. Sometimes I am brought to tears while playing it alone because it's just otherworldly and I feel as if I'm able to reach the stars. It's ephemeral but not fleeting on a piano that you love. The epiphanies come the energy resonates and meets the piano on its own level. How many of you have played a piano that stopped you in your tracks? That is the experience I feel and believe my music and I deserve. Why can't I want this type of relationship with it? Just any piano will not do. I know the majority of people out there like their pianos. But to love a piano is just a different thing all together. I'm not saying I'm better than other people who can play all sorts of instruments it's just the one I'm sharing my space with has to fit.

I can and do occationally slip into the pianos at say the Ritz Carlton, Nordstrom when the paid pianist is on break, the Fashion Island food court. Their fun to play with but I wouldn't want to take them home. These are reasons why I can't buy a brand spanking new piano out of a box. Now back to the L...



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Wow Pamela, I really don't know where to start. First of all a Yamaha C6 is a 6'11" piano. A 1937 Steinway L is 5'10 1/2". By the way a !937 L had ivory keys originally. The Steinway ivories of the 30(s) were beautiful. They were of the best genuine ivory. They were not walrus or not ? which many perceived as ivory. Folks think if the keys were not plastic they were ivory. That is not true. From the get go you are gonna find an obvious difference comparing the the two pianos equally sound wise. Due to bass string length, structural case integrity, case composition, square inches of soundboard, scale design etc.etc. these items collectively will affect how you will perceive the sound of the two pianos. A semiconcert grand is gonna have the advantage over a much smaller parlor grand period. Bigger is not always better but in this scenario a good C6 is gonna have an edge over a Steinway L period. Now compare a good C6 to a good Steinway B and see what you think. Believe me I know the difference. I've owned 8-9 different preowned Yamaha C6(s) over the years and have owned and restored maybe 30-40 vintage Steinway L(s). A Steinway L of the 30(s)is a GREAT restoration candidate. Having been in the restoration industry for a couple decades, I have seen very very few restoration operations that have the ability and technology to pull off a Steinway restoration analogous to the comparable precision level of the Japanese C.N C. factoris etc.. Believe me N.Y Steinway wishes they could manufacture at the same precision level as the Japanese. But the Japanese wish they could make a piano to sound like a New York or Hamburg Steinway. It is mostly in the precision level everything from fitted pinblocks to precision hammer boring to ? etc. Of course in restoration there is always predominantly gonna be MUCH hand work. To make a long story short get the L to LA. We will assess it and tell you EXACTLY what the shortcomings are and whether or not it is remediable cost effectively. I've found that once an action stack was rebuilt and was done at a substandard level,it can't really be remedied 100%. Sometimes the newer parts can't be salvaged. You have to unfortunately start over. I have no idea what shortcomings were taken if any in the action stack upon the rebuild. I've found over the years one has to change everything part wise from the wippens to the backchecks to the bushings to the back rail cloth to ? etc. in order to have it play compareable to a NEW STEINWAY or in our case superior. I think you should check out our restoration operation and sample the wares. I guarantee you will have secound thoughts on getting a Yamaha again But Maybe not. We are in the San Fernando Valley. Your situation intrigues me and would consider it a challange. If you need assistance I could get your piano here in L.A. quick in that I am delivering 2 Steinway grands to the midwest in a couple weeks. Good luck !


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Originally Posted by Bach48
Retsacnal,

You are right on all accounts, and thank you for reading the entire thread and paying such close attention!

1. The MIL told me back in 2006, she couldn't play it anymore because it was too hard. Not because she didn't like the sound. She also said it's because I'm old, and your a lot younger so you'll be able to play it. I spent a fortune getting it all redone, isn't it beautiful? She's in her late 80's now and they have been out of the house away from the piano since 2011. So she doesn't remember how awful the piano really is. She just remembers she had it all redone and how wonderful, just the keys were hard to play in her mind because she's become more frail! She waxes on about it now! How wonderful, my mothers piano, I spent a fortune getting it perfect, isn't it a beautiful Steinway? I'm going to give it to you so it can stay in the family. Isn't it just wonderful?

2. Yes, in my haste to try and get this out on paper, ( the call from the MIL, the call to the dealer who gave me the guys phone number, calling the guy to find out what's going on, the perdicament all happened within a couple weeks. I panicked and I left out the dealer part because I was writing Bout how upset I was when they came to take my C6. So sorry about that, yes a mistake and my apologies to all the posters here for sticking up for me.

3. When I called the dealer, a girl answers and agrees to look up who they sold it to, gives me his number and I call him. She was obviously new, and yes, I was really lucky she didn't know better to try and broker a sale.

4. When I had played the piano before the 2006 overhaul, I'm pretty sure it had ivory keys, but I'm not completely positive. But I had a weird feeling about it. So that's why I think he may have taken them. Then I did ask the forum, did 1937 come with ivories? Because I don't know that answer. The keys are now even looking, so I think they're new regardless.

So, no you are not crazy, yes I tried to put the story in chronological order, and didn't nail that, again I am sorry for the confusion, and I'm still upset about this perdicament.


Ok, thanks for such a detailed reply. So, I'm not crazy, and you're not either. You know what you want, and what you don't want. I think your only rational choice is to forego the Steinway. As others have already noted, it's never going to produce the commanding bass you need. And it's never going to make you happy.

Frankly, I think it'd be a terrible waste of resources to ship it to SoCal and have it worked on when you already know it'll never make you happy. I'd estimate at least $1500 just to ship it, and that money would be better applied towards your forever piano.

This may sound silly, but if you buy your C6 back, your net cost "to keep it stored" was 11,000. Divide that by 36 months, and it's probably not much more than climate controlled storage would have been. Apply the saved cost of shipping the Steinway, and it's even less. The same holds true if you buy something else too.

Your feelings about this are pretty strong. I'd suggest you heed them. Otherwise you'll never be happy...


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Originally Posted by Bach48
Mr Meeeyow,

Yes, you get it and thank you so much for sharing your story with the rest of us. I am particular, I need a connection with my pianos my cars my animals anything I have to share my house my living space with etc. a piano isn't just a piano to me, forget about romanticism for a moment. I seriously need a piano that fits, a piano that I can work with intimately and grow to love more and more. I was not kidding about taking naps under my C6 when I first bought it. I cannot play a nice regular piano, it has to speak to me. I'm sure many people like their pianos but they could probably like most other pianos too. This is different, it just is. I can't love a piano that doesn't have a commanding bass. I just can't love a piano that might be ok, mediocre, so so, alright, good enough, nice, pretty, sounds good, plays ok, etc.

I don't want a substitute for something I know I can find, or will find someday. I want to love my piano, not have hope for my piano like I did all thoes wasted years with the M.

It's Ms Meow smile Oh, everyone else has heard way too much about my story, I'm sure. My piano journey has been full of ups and downs.

Perhaps what you've said here is what you need to say to your MIL. You're very expressive and I'm sure you could convey your feelings well!


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