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Originally Posted by Beemer
A 'corsair' is a pirate

Ian
And the name of Morgan's ship per the link in my post. smile

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Originally Posted by iLaw
Originally Posted by Beemer

I'm not criticising those who buy these pianos. I guess my eyes just don't see the beauty that others do.


Ian,

How do feel about other old things? Old cars? Old paintings? Old castles? Old books? Old songs?

Larry.



Larry,

Old cars - I have been in the Bavarian motor museum and seen the 1886 (first) car made by Benz. Impressive to see but I prefer owing my 2014 M-B 😆

Old paintings - Now what's this old painting in my attic. She looks so enigmatic. Couldn't possibly be worth anything could it?

Old castles - plenty around here in Scotland. Trouble is they are overrun with tourists

Old books - I came home one day with six large boxes of very old music books and sheet music. They smell mouldy and most of them are still my loft. I will conceed that I am reluctant to throw them out.

Old songs - You got me there. I love them all

Maybe if I were to physically play a Pleyel instead of my Pianotek modelled one I would appreciate it more.

https://www.pianoteq.com/kremsegg2

Ian



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Originally Posted by Beemer
Originally Posted by iLaw
Originally Posted by Beemer

I'm not criticising those who buy these pianos. I guess my eyes just don't see the beauty that others do.


Ian,

How do feel about other old things? Old cars? Old paintings? Old castles? Old books? Old songs?

Larry.



Larry,

Old cars - I have been in the Bavarian motor museum and seen the 1886 (first) car made by Benz. Impressive to see but I prefer owing my 2014 M-B 😆

Old paintings - Now what's this old painting in my attic. She looks so enigmatic. Couldn't possibly be worth anything could it?

Old castles - plenty around here in Scotland. Trouble is they are overrun with tourists

Old books - I came home one day with six large boxes of very old music books and sheet music. They smell mouldy and most of them are still my loft. I will conceed that I am reluctant to throw them out.

Old songs - You got me there. I love them all

Maybe if I were to physically play a Pleyel instead of my Pianotek modelled one I would appreciate it more.

https://www.pianoteq.com/kremsegg2

Ian



Maybe you wouldn't, I admit I have played Chopin's very own Pleyel that he left in the UK after touring. It's now in a museum in the UK. It's a fascinating instrument but it has an interesting tenor and bass. It does have a beautiful, silverly treble, but modern pianos, in my opinion make the tenor/bass area of this particular instrument sound very weak compared to the modern equivalent. This is a comparison to a mid 1800's piano. I personally find pianos from the great makers in the early 20th century take on a stronger sound generally. Not entirely surprising, more modern engineering and materials do bring benefits.

Just an observation.

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If you want to hear the piano itself Sam Haywood released a CD of It in conjunction with Hatchlands museum...

http://www.cobbecollection.co.uk/

Last edited by DiarmuidD; 04/07/16 09:00 PM.
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And Sam's website does have a better recording

www.samhaywood.com

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I listened to the last link and I was surprised at the piano's power and repetition clarity. Was it this piano that had the wool hammers?

ian


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I don't know to be honest Beemer, it had some restoration but I don't know the details.

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Speaking only for myself, a few years ago I went grand shopping. Over the course of many months I looked at many pianos, new, used (recent vintage), and antique. The more I looked, the more I liked what are loosely called American golden era pianos. My experience was they tended to have a characteristic sound and touch. I found them to be bright and bold with a rich bass (when in decent condition anyway). Not a mellow sound, but not harsh either. The antiques almost universally had a much lighter touch which I very much preferred. In the end it came down to a new Hailun 178, a 1927 Steinway O, or a reconditioned (not rebuilt) 1889, 6'2" Mason and Hamlin screwstringer, the precursor to an AA. I ended up with the Mason. It called to me. I knew it was the one in less than one minute of playing.

I am certain I could have had any new piano voiced and regulated to suit my taste, and the Hailun was already close and similarly priced (~$10K), but it didn't have that special something the old Mason did, even knowing the strings were maybe 30 to 50 years old and the soundboard is cracked in a couple places. I'm sure I'll have to do a belly rebuild in a few years, but no rush. To me it sounds delicious and I'm in no hurry to risk any change.

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As manufactures use cheaper materials and brand names that mean nothing vintage pianos with a pedigree become more desirable to some. There will always be cheap pianos being made and being sold.
There will always be clients for quality vintage pianos being rebuild by top rebuilders.
I personally have never been busier. Clients want vintage and dealers of new pianos would love to see that slow down.

I love what I do and am happy for those that understand it.



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The conundrum for the high quality piano manufacturers is that that the longevity of their instruments can slow sales of new pianos. Rather than replace a much loved family heirloom piano with a new instrument, the owners will probably have it rebuilt by people like Rod. That is the best option. A beautiful piano is rejuvenated at a cost much less than the cost of a new replacement. It may even sound better than a new replacement.

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Robert.

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Originally Posted by Karl Watson
Friends:
This thread reminds me of the old saw about the man who asked J. P. Morgan the cost of his yacht "Corsair."


Karl, that reminds me of a story...

I believe it was Edith Wharton's husband Teddy who, after a long night at a party, caught a pre-dawn ride home on the milk wagon! Spotted by a social climber, who later called him on it saying, "I wouldn't be caught dead on the milk wagon," Wharton responded, "if I were you, I wouldn't either."

Ok, sorry for the off-topic anecdote. Back to the regularly scheduled programming... wink


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Originally Posted by PhilipInChina
I think I prefer old castles to new ones.


+1

Me too! thumb


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I like older things. I think they possess a certain character or je ne sais quoi that only comes with time, not off the assembly line (quality product or not). They have a sort of "story" to tell. Not that there's anything wrong with new stuff.

There was a time when things were built to last. Unfortunately, for the most part, those days are gone. It's still possible to buy a quality piano that will last, of course, and I know that every piano built back in the day wasn't high quality either, but if a piano has stood the test of time, then it's reasonable to assume that it will last even longer, especially if it's properly maintained.

All things being equal, I think I'd always prefer an older piano to a newer one. Now, I can hear some of you saying, "but Retsacnal, a 50 year old piano is [probably] going to need a lot of work, and that's expensive," to which I would point out that if a piano needs new strings, or a sound board, that it's not "equal" to a new one, and these are all factors to consider.

To be relatively equal, the old one would probably need to be rebuilt, restored, or refurbished. But it would likely still be cheaper than a new one, and it would have that "character" that a new one lacks. To me, that's the perfect storm.

Imagine two households with Steinway B's in their living rooms. One is relatively new, but the other looks new, feels like new, and plays like new...but it's 75 years old! To me, the older one possesses a nebulous quality that the new one simply cannot. And what a conversation piece!

For the new one, ok, somebody wrote a big check (easy). For the other, someone tracked down and reclaimed an antique, or revitalized a family member's treasure, or something special (even if it was to search out one that has already been rebuilt--it still has that je ne sais quoi)! The old one has been making music, and enriching people's lives since before most of us were born. I can't articulate why, but to me that's very special.

Anyway, more important than the piano is the pianist, in my opinion. I've said many times that I'd rather hear a great player on a lousy piano, than a lousy player on a great piano.




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It seems like this thread is much like 'which is better, an acoustic or a digital'. Lots of discussion, but few (if any) opinions are changed at the end. For the most part, you see the value of a vintage piano... or you don't. ... much like Corsair.

Thank goodness that we all don't have the same appreciation for vintage... otherwise, I wouldn't be able to afford mine. .. more new pianos could be produced if no one preferred a vintage piano.. but it would be impossible to produce more vintage shocked


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Originally Posted by Retsacnal
I like older things. I think they possess a certain character or je ne sais quoi that only comes with time, not off the assembly line (quality product or not). They have a sort of "story" to tell. Not that there's anything wrong with new stuff.

There was a time when things were built to last. Unfortunately, for the most part, those days are gone. It's still possible to buy a quality piano that will last, of course, and I know that every piano built back in the day wasn't high quality either, but if a piano has stood the test of time, then it's reasonable to assume that it will last even longer, especially if it's properly maintained.

All things being equal, I think I'd always prefer an older piano to a newer one. Now, I can hear some of you saying, "but Retsacnal, a 50 year old piano is [probably] going to need a lot of work, and that's expensive," to which I would point out that if a piano needs new strings, or a sound board, that it's not "equal" to a new one, and these are all factors to consider.

To be relatively equal, the old one would probably need to be rebuilt, restored, or refurbished. But it would likely still be cheaper than a new one, and it would have that "character" that a new one lacks. To me, that's the perfect storm.

Imagine two households with Steinway B's in their living rooms. One is relatively new, but the other looks new, feels like new, and plays like new...but it's 75 years old! To me, the older one possesses a nebulous quality that the new one simply cannot. And what a conversation piece!

For the new one, ok, somebody wrote a big check (easy). For the other, someone tracked down and reclaimed an antique, or revitalized a family member's treasure, or something special (even if it was to search out one that has already been rebuilt--it still has that je ne sais quoi)! The old one has been making music, and enriching people's lives since before most of us were born. I can't articulate why, but to me that's very special.

Anyway, more important than the piano is the pianist, in my opinion. I've said many times that I'd rather hear a great player on a lousy piano, than a lousy player on a great piano.




I do like that smile

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Well, I like old farm tractors and old pianos. But I wish I was young instead of old. grin

The last pic is of me when I was 18 years old taken for the cover of a Gospel music record album. Where does the time go... (and why did I wait until I was 50 to start learning to play the piano smile )

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Originally Posted by Rickster
Well, I like old farm tractors and old pianos. But I wish I was young instead of old. grin

The last pic is of me when I was 18 years old taken for the cover of a Gospel music record album. Where does the time go... (and why did I wait until I was 50 to start learning to play the piano smile )

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Amen to that.

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Originally Posted by Rickster

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Nice picture. I do love a Les Paul! Below is my hot-rodded Gibson Les Paul Studio.

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Nice guitar, Retsacnal!

Looks like we have more in common than just a Baldwin baby grand piano. smile

I was watching Pawn Stars on the Histroy channel last evening and a guy brought in a 1952 Fender Telacaster electric guitar. The Harrisons (owners of the Pawn Shop in Los Vegas) called in the local guitar expert and he said it could be worth up to $30K. The Pawn Shop offered the guy $13K and he accepted the offer. The Pawn Shop then sold the guitar to the expert for $30K.

The attraction for old guitars? They ain't cheap. smile

Rick


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I had a '63 Fender Custom Esquire back in the 80's. I've seen them selling for similar prices recently...

That's a guitar I should have held on to, but I traded it for a Stratocaster. I brought it in to a shop in Santa Cruz, CA to see what I could get for it, and the guy in the shop asked me what I wanted. I was playing the Strat at the time, so I said something like "this guitar." He said yes so quickly that I realized I ought to aim a little higher, so I quickly added "and the amp," pointing at the Marshall half-stack I was playing through, as if I had been planning a package deal all along. He readily agreed to that as well, so I added "and the cables and pedals" pointing at the gear between the guitar and the amp. Pretty much the whole setup that I was checking out. He said yes.

At the time, I really felt like I was pushing my luck, but I always wondered if he got the better end of the deal. It was already a collectable vintage guitar by then (late 80s), but I didn't really like it's style, and I really did love the rig I traded for. And, of course, he had to have room to make a profit (I just think he got more room than I realized at the time).

Back in those days I really loved making a lot of noise. And nowadays, my fingers can't come close to doing the things they could back then... sigh. But I'm not interested in playing like that anymore either. wink

Anyway, a couple years later I realized that I prefer a Les Paul. And I still do. smile


(sorry, getting way off topic)


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