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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Originally Posted by Miguel Rey
Some people just don't understand or like Jazz so they make ignorant comments.

Bottom line: anyone can learn to play some of the most difficult pieces in classical music with good teachers and a lot of practice but not so much for jazz and takes much more than practice. Very few JP Johnsons and Art Tatums out there yet droves of incredible classical pianists. Those are just the facts


Anyone can learn to play the most difficult classical pieces with good teachers, lots of good practice, lots of talent, and if they start extremely young, say 6 or younger, better if they start at 3.
There are lots of superb jazz pianists who aren't Art Tatum, just like there are lots of superb classical pianists who aren't Horowitz. If there are more high level classical pianists than jazz, it is simply a matter of numbers and tradition. There is a much bigger pool of classical pianists to create the few top players compared with Jazz.
Many parents with the desire to see their children succeed as classical pianists ( in their ability to play, not make a living) understand they need to get them started extremely young and invest in a great teacher. That is much more uncommon in Jazz.


Yes many great Jazz artists but I'm talking about the founders or grandfathers of Jazz piano that ALL others strive to be and respect.

More like a huge gigantic pool considering large amount of classical giants of the 20th Century.




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Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Right now the technical standard for pro level pianists is so high that the overwhelming majority could learn to play the examples you gave at a very high technical level. I think most of the 14 year old ( or younger ) pianists at Juilliard prep would have no problem playing this genre. ...

Perhaps, but it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Their ability to swing is what made Tatum and Peterson great and above the rest. Technically there are likely many top classical pianists that could play a transcription from Tatum or Peterson with more accuracy then they could. So what. It totally misses the point. Stride is a small part of jazz. With it, everything feels dated. In limited quantity with a good mix of other jazz styles and it can be very effective. Aside from a few Rag specialists, I don't think very many pianists set out to be stride pianists.

It is a pointless argument. Is a formula 1 driver, better than an Indy Car driver? Maybe, but they don't go as fast.



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Originally Posted by Greener

It is a pointless argument. Is a formula 1 driver, better than an Indy Car driver? Maybe, but they don't go as fast.

Are you saying the stride pianists play faster than classical?


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Originally Posted by Greener
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
Right now the technical standard for pro level pianists is so high that the overwhelming majority could learn to play the examples you gave at a very high technical level. I think most of the 14 year old ( or younger ) pianists at Juilliard prep would have no problem playing this genre. ...

Perhaps, but it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Their ability to swing is what made Tatum and Peterson great and above the rest. Technically there are likely many top classical pianists that could play a transcription from Tatum or Peterson with more accuracy then they could. So what. It totally misses the point. Stride is a small part of jazz. With it, everything feels dated. In limited quantity with a good mix of other jazz styles and it can be very effective. Aside from a few Rag specialists, I don't think very many pianists set out to be stride pianists.

It is a pointless argument. Is a formula 1 driver, better than an Indy Car driver? Maybe, but they don't go as fast.



Huh, somehow I always had the idea that F1 was faster.


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For the best jazz technician just look at Thelonius Monk =P


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Originally Posted by Steve Chandler
Originally Posted by Greener

It is a pointless argument. Is a formula 1 driver, better than an Indy Car driver? Maybe, but they don't go as fast.

Are you saying the stride pianists play faster than classical?

No. I'm saying F1 is a different event than Indy Car.

Originally Posted by phantomFive

Huh, somehow I always had the idea that F1 was faster.

Yes, they have similar arguments in their forums I bet, and this is where it starts. Theory is F1 would be faster if geared for top end. But, in a race they never achieve top speed so they are geared to reach high speed quickly. On the oval though, it is mostly top speed or close to it all the way. Their top end is higher and they are geared as such. Slow to take off though. Thus, the fastest speed in an Indy race is faster then the top speed of a F1 race. Not fair comparison right? Many still think F1 is fastest.

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The OP asked how difficult it would be for a pro classical pianist to play the LH in stride, or something close to that. That is all I answered.


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Yes, and I'll agree to some degree. The way it read (to me) though, it sounded like to be able to do so would put them on equal footing. Of course it does not. Speed is but one small part of it. The likes of Tatum and Peterson are one among millions. There isn't a prep school somewhere that is filled with them.

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There's an interesting BBC program of Andre Previn interviewing Oscar Peterson. They spend some time discussing Tatum.

Skip to 8:00


The Horowitz story is here:



As the Horowitz story points out. it was Tatum's musicianship that stood out, not so much his technique.

Plus Tatum was blind.

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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
I think most of the 14 year old ( or younger ) pianists at Juilliard prep would have no problem playing this genre.

Whether it would sound authentic and convincing is something else altogether, but the notes would be there.


And this is precisely the problem with this sort of discussion. "Authentic and convincing"" is part of the equation. Because otherwise we're just reducing things to levels that lack any amount of musicality. Who wants to listen to or adjudicate someone or anyone play Ligeti Etudes or the Anna Magdalena Bach Notebook if they're just dry exercises in note grabbing? If the standard of the discussion excludes what it takes to make stride and such 'convincing' we might as well talk about the finest pianos in the world without going any deeper than than finish and veneer. Forget what the instrument sounds like. Forget what it feels like. Is it even tuned?

Not to mention that stride was usually improvised at speed. Take the musical requirements out of the equation - improvising at speed is a musical component - and leave it simply at the level of who can get their fingers onto the notes and something grotesque has been perpetuated. Have we really reached the point where the ability to render something musically, with feeling, in the style, with appropriate tone, with nuances of phrasing, and, again, extemporaneously, on the spot - improvised -has no bearing on the discussion? Bach and etc were improvisers. Back in the day the inability to improvise convincingly was a non-starter.

If we've reached the point where convincing musicality isn't part of the equation we might as well bring in the virtuosic whack-a-mole players. Perhaps they have faster reflexes than accomplished concert artists? We might as well, again, ask if the finish is all that's required to constitute a piano? We might as well ...well, the point becomes clear at least for some.

I very fortunately studied at a conservatory (New England) with Jaki Byard, one of the great stride pianists. Seeing and hearing Jaki's level of ability next to a Russell Sherman was eye and ear opening.

If we're going to leave out the 'convincing' part of the equation we might as well hook pianists and instrument to a gizmo and measure who has the fastest response time, the most finely honed fast-twitch muscles.In that case Bruce Lee and Muhammed Ali might win. Take away the musicality and the demands of 'convincing in style and nuance' and all that's left is the empty shell–the emperor's new clothes.

Not to mention that 14-year old pianists may not (yet) have the requisite sized hand to play filled-in tenths Tatum negotiated as easily as single notes. But no matter! Tenths can always be rolled!


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Originally Posted by sophial
Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
I think most of the 14 year old ( or younger ) pianists at Juilliard prep would have no problem playing this genre.

Whether it would sound authentic and convincing is something else altogether, but the notes would be there.


And this is precisely the problem with this sort of discussion. "Authentic and convincing"" is part of the equation. Because otherwise we're just reducing things to levels that lack any amount of musicality. Who wants to listen to or adjudicate someone or anyone play Ligeti Etudes or the Anna Magdalena Bach Notebook if they're just dry exercises in note grabbing? If the standard of the discussion excludes what it takes to make stride and such 'convincing' we might as well talk about the finest pianos in the world without going any deeper than than finish and veneer. Forget what the instrument sounds like. Forget what it feels like. Is it even tuned?

Not to mention that stride was usually improvised at speed. Take the musical requirements out of the equation - improvising at speed is a musical component - and leave it simply at the level of who can get their fingers onto the notes and something grotesque has been perpetuated. Have we really reached the point where the ability to render something musically, with feeling, in the style, with appropriate tone, with nuances of phrasing, and, again, extemporaneously, on the spot - improvised -has no bearing on the discussion? Bach and etc were improvisers. Back in the day the inability to improvise convincingly was a non-starter.

If we've reached the point where convincing musicality isn't part of the equation we might as well bring in the virtuosic whack-a-mole players. Perhaps they have faster reflexes than accomplished concert artists? We might as well, again, ask if the finish is all that's required to constitute a piano? We might as well ...well, the point becomes clear at least for some.

I very fortunately studied at a conservatory (New England) with Jaki Byard, one of the great stride pianists. Seeing and hearing Jaki's level of ability next to a Russell Sherman was eye and ear opening.

If we're going to leave out the 'convincing' part of the equation we might as well hook pianists and instrument to a gizmo and measure who has the fastest response time, the most finely honed fast-twitch muscles.In that case Bruce Lee and Muhammed Ali might win. Take away the musicality and the demands of 'convincing in style and nuance' and all that's left is the empty shell–the emperor's new clothes.

Not to mention that 14-year old pianists may not (yet) have the requisite sized hand to play filled-in tenths Tatum negotiated as easily as single notes. But no matter! Tenths can always be rolled!


Great response. thumb
Actually my original question was just how easily(or not)a pro classical pianist could technically handle the left hand of difficult stride pieces like the ones I posted. It was not meant to be about if they could swing, play the right hand like Tatum, or improvise.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by sophial
Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
Originally Posted by Keith D Kerman
I think most of the 14 year old ( or younger ) pianists at Juilliard prep would have no problem playing this genre.

Whether it would sound authentic and convincing is something else altogether, but the notes would be there.


And this is precisely the problem with this sort of discussion. "Authentic and convincing"" is part of the equation. Because otherwise we're just reducing things to levels that lack any amount of musicality. Who wants to listen to or adjudicate someone or anyone play Ligeti Etudes or the Anna Magdalena Bach Notebook if they're just dry exercises in note grabbing? If the standard of the discussion excludes what it takes to make stride and such 'convincing' we might as well talk about the finest pianos in the world without going any deeper than than finish and veneer. Forget what the instrument sounds like. Forget what it feels like. Is it even tuned?

Not to mention that stride was usually improvised at speed. Take the musical requirements out of the equation - improvising at speed is a musical component - and leave it simply at the level of who can get their fingers onto the notes and something grotesque has been perpetuated. Have we really reached the point where the ability to render something musically, with feeling, in the style, with appropriate tone, with nuances of phrasing, and, again, extemporaneously, on the spot - improvised -has no bearing on the discussion? Bach and etc were improvisers. Back in the day the inability to improvise convincingly was a non-starter.

If we've reached the point where convincing musicality isn't part of the equation we might as well bring in the virtuosic whack-a-mole players. Perhaps they have faster reflexes than accomplished concert artists? We might as well, again, ask if the finish is all that's required to constitute a piano? We might as well ...well, the point becomes clear at least for some.

I very fortunately studied at a conservatory (New England) with Jaki Byard, one of the great stride pianists. Seeing and hearing Jaki's level of ability next to a Russell Sherman was eye and ear opening.

If we're going to leave out the 'convincing' part of the equation we might as well hook pianists and instrument to a gizmo and measure who has the fastest response time, the most finely honed fast-twitch muscles.In that case Bruce Lee and Muhammed Ali might win. Take away the musicality and the demands of 'convincing in style and nuance' and all that's left is the empty shell–the emperor's new clothes.

Not to mention that 14-year old pianists may not (yet) have the requisite sized hand to play filled-in tenths Tatum negotiated as easily as single notes. But no matter! Tenths can always be rolled!


Great response. thumb
Actually my original question was just how easily(or not)a pro classical pianist could technically handle the left hand of difficult stride pieces like the ones I posted. It was not meant to be about if they could swing, play the right hand like Tatum, or improvise.


I think the technical aspect of the jumps is easier than doing octave runs (like the Chopin octave etude), especially if you've spent most of your piano career not looking at your hands like your teacher taught you.

Certainly any pianist who can play La Campanella convincingly has the technique to play the jumps.


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Originally Posted by phantomFive

I think the technical aspect of the jumps is easier than doing octave runs (like the Chopin octave etude), especially if you've spent most of your piano career not looking at your hands like your teacher taught you.

Certainly any pianist who can play La Campanella convincingly has the technique to play the jumps.
The point of my question wasn't whether one type of technical skill is easier or harder. Rather it was asking if how easily a good pro classical pianist could learn a difficult kind of technique that very rarely appears in classical music.

Virtually all classical pianists look at their hands when performing at least some of the time.

Are you you talking about the RH single note jumps at the beginning of La Campanella?

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Are you you talking about the RH single note jumps at the beginning of La Campanella?

Yes


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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Certainly any pianist who can play La Campanella convincingly has the technique to play the jumps.

Of which there are not many. Most pianists who attempt this piece sound like they're just barely hitting the notes and about to fall apart at any minute.


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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Are you you talking about the RH single note jumps at the beginning of La Campanella?
Yes
These are single note jumps vs. single note(or octave or tenth)to chord jumps, for a very small period of time compared to a stride piece, and mostly shorter jumps than many stride pieces. Very different IMO.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
These are single note jumps vs. single note(or octave or tenth)to chord jumps, for a very small period of time compared to a stride piece, and mostly shorter jumps than many stride pieces. Very different IMO.

Would you say it is significantly harder to play a chord at the end of a jump than a single note? Is that why you think it is different, or did you have some other reason?


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Are you you talking about the RH single note jumps at the beginning of La Campanella?
Yes
These are single note jumps vs. single note(or octave or tenth)to chord jumps, for a very small period of time compared to a stride piece, and mostly shorter jumps than many stride pieces. Very different IMO.


Boy, the lot of you are embarrassing yourselves. Really!

If we're talking technical comparisons, I'm waiting for any average jazzer to play the flight of the bumble bee in octaves and in tempo, like Yuja Wang does here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yZPrrboTkY

...(the sound of me waiting)...

Any well-trained pianist, who has gone to the trouble of developing a good, well-rounded technique, will be able to pick up a texture like 'stride" with no more difficulty than anyone else. Of course, if you haven't developed a complete technique, than you'll be limited by it no matter what your training has been, and your stride playing will suffer as will learning it. It has been commonly observed that the average jazz and pop keyboard players do not develop themselves technically to the same extent as classical players by and large. The demands of the industry don't necessarily require it- strong improvisation and musicianship, excellent harmony, keyboarding skills not so much. Hence, the technical limitations among those players are much more obvious and prevalent.

If we're talking about "convincing", that's a matter of style and artistry. Any good, well-trained musician has to play in several styles convincingly. Stride is just another style as much as it is a technical skill, and a good musician can learn play it well regardless of how one "grew up". It is a myth that there is something "unique" about playing jazz, or Mozart, from a stylistic perspective, that cannot be learned. It can ALL be learned! Granted, some players do certain styles more easily and better than others, but nevertheless anybody can learn how to play something convincingly. If this weren't true, there'd be no point in taking lessons from anyone, ever!

To be clear, there is plenty of "stride" texture in the 19th/20th century standard piano literature, and some of it more difficult than the Art Tatum sample posted here. Do we need to make a list for you? Jazz has absolutely no corner on that market. The texture is not an original invention of jazz players; they got it from 19th century Europe. If you insist there isn't, you need to go spend more time in a music library.

And as far as not being able to play a style convincingly, that fault can be laid at the door of many successful and famous musicians. I remember when Keith Jarrett commercially recorded Bach for sale and broadcast, the Goldbergs I think it was. And it was DREADFUL!!! Jarrett had not bothered to learn anything about the Bach style before taking on the project. He tried to play it with the same technical and artistic limitations as he plays jazz, and it did not come off well. The scales were uneven, the counterpoint never happened, he missed the phrasing in many places, his cantabile legato was not at all convincing, and the more difficult technical parts just did not come off. I suspect he never asked anybody how it sounded except possibly the recording engineer, who was the wrong person to ask. The recording was not a success.

If Jarrett or any jazz player wants to do more of that kind of legit literature, then they really need to go learn how to do it. Just like everybody else.

...(still waiting)...

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Originally Posted by laguna_greg
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Are you you talking about the RH single note jumps at the beginning of La Campanella?
Yes
These are single note jumps vs. single note(or octave or tenth)to chord jumps, for a very small period of time compared to a stride piece, and mostly shorter jumps than many stride pieces. Very different IMO.


Boy, the lot of you are embarrassing yourselves. Really!

Welcome, I'm glad you could come in with such friendly greeting!


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Originally Posted by laguna_greg

If we're talking technical comparisons, I'm waiting for any average jazzer to play the flight of the bumble bee in octaves and in tempo, like Yuja Wang does here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yZPrrboTkY

...(the sound of me waiting)...


There is no battle between jazz technique and classical technique, I don’t know why some posters here feel the need to always set up this false comparison. The thing is that jazz technique is different - Art Tatum is doing a lot more than just moving his hands very fast making some fast stride style jumps, that aspect is almost irrelevant to the real technique he is displaying which is the ability to take a simple melody and sequence and create variations on it in real time with astonishing accomplishment whilst expanding on the stylistic constraints of the day. Classical players do not do that, the techniques they display are very different. Not worse or better just different.
To reduce the music and musicians to the level of who can wiggle their fingers fastest is as ridiculous as judging poetry by who uses the longest words.

Originally Posted by laguna_greg

If Jarrett or any jazz player wants to do more of that kind of legit literature, then they really need to go learn how to do it. Just like everybody else.

...(still waiting)...


The fact that Jarrett comes from a different place with a different range of experiences makes his classical playing a little different but I think that is a good thing - imo the world does not need yet another version of Goldberg that is virtually the same as those that have already been recorded hundreds of times. I am sure you won’t like them but there are different approaches being taken to the Goldberg by some jazz players, approaches that classical players cannot begin to emulate because if the improvisation skills they use….Dan Tepfer for instance …

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8WGcjB6ryI

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