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#2489644 12/11/15 08:43 AM
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Hi,

I have had a CLP 585 for a couple of weeks now and the key action feels a lot heavier and less responsive than the demo models in store.

I've measured the static down weight and it comes out at over 90g on the lower octaves. I noticed another user measured at around 80g in the lower octaves. I've contacted Yamaha who won't release key weight information for this model.

Are there any other CLP 585 owners who can measure static down weight on their models please as a comparison?

Thanks



A80 #2489663 12/11/15 10:08 AM
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I had a CLP 585 for a few weeks before exchanging it for the NU1. I measured the touch weights of the CLP 585 in the top octave, the middle octave and the bottom one. I used piles of coins which I weighed afterwards on a digital balance, which is meant to be accurate to within 2g.

The results:

Top octave
Down: 60g
Up: 38g

Middle octave
Down: 68g
Up: 44g

Bottom octave
Down: 80g
Up: 58g

I also had the opportunity of testing a CLP 575 (same mechanism but without counterweights). The touch was was 6-10 grams heavier:

Top octave
Down: 66g
Up: 44g

Middle octave
Down: 76g
Up: 50g

Bottom octave
Down: 90g
Up: 66g

Last edited by MRC; 12/11/15 10:21 AM.

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For comparison, I measured the downweight on my acoustic gran (Petrof) and my MP11 both on C2. The AP was 78g and the DP was 70g. I also did with coins and a digital scale, so there's probably some room for variation in there.

When you do this, do you measure what it takes to get the key all the way down, or just to the first bump in the escapement? I think the Petrof would need a lot more to overcome that, but the MP11 went all the way down at 70g.


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Originally Posted by Morodiene
For comparison, I measured the downweight on my acoustic gran (Petrof) and my MP11 both on C2. The AP was 78g and the DP was 70g. I also did with coins and a digital scale, so there's probably some room for variation in there.

When you do this, do you measure what it takes to get the key all the way down, or just to the first bump in the escapement? I think the Petrof would need a lot more to overcome that, but the MP11 went all the way down at 70g.


Did you have the damper pedal on the Petrof raised when you tested downweight? Remember also that the test weight must be placed correctly on the key to have a standard for comparison with the industry based downweights. The key does not have to go all the way down.

Last edited by prout; 12/11/15 10:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Morodiene
For comparison, I measured the downweight on my acoustic gran (Petrof) and my MP11 both on C2. The AP was 78g and the DP was 70g. I also did with coins and a digital scale, so there's probably some room for variation in there.

When you do this, do you measure what it takes to get the key all the way down, or just to the first bump in the escapement? I think the Petrof would need a lot more to overcome that, but the MP11 went all the way down at 70g.


Did you have the damper pedal on the Petrof raised when you tested downweight? Remember also that the test weight must be placed correctly on the key to have a standard for comparison with the industry based downweights.


I was not pressing the damper pedal when I did this...should I have? I placed the coins closer to the edge of the key.


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Thank you everyone for your feedback so far.

I also measured on C2 and other keys in the lower octave. The key would not start moving down at all until the weight was well over 90g.

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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Morodiene
For comparison, I measured the downweight on my acoustic gran (Petrof) and my MP11 both on C2. The AP was 78g and the DP was 70g. I also did with coins and a digital scale, so there's probably some room for variation in there.

When you do this, do you measure what it takes to get the key all the way down, or just to the first bump in the escapement? I think the Petrof would need a lot more to overcome that, but the MP11 went all the way down at 70g.


Did you have the damper pedal on the Petrof raised when you tested downweight? Remember also that the test weight must be placed correctly on the key to have a standard for comparison with the industry based downweights.


I was not pressing the damper pedal when I did this...should I have? I placed the coins closer to the edge of the key.


Yes, the weight of a damper is not part of downweight. A normal downweight should range from a little over 50gm in the bass to 45gm in the high treble. In reality, it is more like 60+gm in the bass and 40+ in the treble. The weight should be placed at the end of the key as you did. This places the centre of the coin weight in a relatively standard position.

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Thank MRC. I'd previously read your measurements and was surprised at how much mine deviated. I am also using coins to measure the weight so I would expect some room for error.

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Originally Posted by prout


Yes, the weight of a damper is not part of downweight. A normal downweight should range from a little over 50gm in the bass to 45gm in the high treble. In reality, it is more like 60+gm in the bass and 40+ in the treble. The weight should be placed at the end of the key as you did. This places the centre of the coin weight in a relatively standard position.


OK, with the damper pedal, C2 was at 74g. My piano tech said that I have one of the heavier actions he's played, so it does not surprise me.

I'm still surprised that the OP's digital and others are getting such high numbers.


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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by prout


Yes, the weight of a damper is not part of downweight. A normal downweight should range from a little over 50gm in the bass to 45gm in the high treble. In reality, it is more like 60+gm in the bass and 40+ in the treble. The weight should be placed at the end of the key as you did. This places the centre of the coin weight in a relatively standard position.


OK, with the damper pedal, C2 was at 74g. My piano tech said that I have one of the heavier actions he's played, so it does not surprise me.

I'm still surprised that the OP's digital and others are getting such high numbers.


It may be that they are simply newer than your DP(s).

I have 2 DPs. The old one is much lighter than the newer one, and both are much heavier than my M&H BB.

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Originally Posted by prout
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by prout


Yes, the weight of a damper is not part of downweight. A normal downweight should range from a little over 50gm in the bass to 45gm in the high treble. In reality, it is more like 60+gm in the bass and 40+ in the treble. The weight should be placed at the end of the key as you did. This places the centre of the coin weight in a relatively standard position.


OK, with the damper pedal, C2 was at 74g. My piano tech said that I have one of the heavier actions he's played, so it does not surprise me.

I'm still surprised that the OP's digital and others are getting such high numbers.


It may be that they are simply newer than your DP(s).

I have 2 DPs. The old one is much lighter than the newer one, and both are much heavier than my M&H BB.


Could be, but my MP11 is only 2 years old, and only gets a lot of play for 3 months over the summers. I always felt the action was close to my Petrof but a little lighter, so that's consistent with my measurements. But to me 90g seems pretty darn heavy when my AP is at 74g...90g seems near impossible to me.


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My CLP is extremely difficult to play. After a week of playing on my clavinova, my teacher's CVP509 felt light.

I'm placing the coins at the end of the keys as you did and I've tried the test a number of times and it comes out as over 90g each time. The difference between mine and the demo models (I tried 3 in the same store) was really noticeable.

I am getting a replacement model next week.

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Originally Posted by AH80
My CLP is extremely difficult to play. After a week of playing on my clavinova, my teacher's CVP509 felt light.

I'm placing the coins at the end of the keys as you did and I've tried the test a number of times and it comes out as over 90g each time. The difference between mine and the demo models (I tried 3 in the same store) was really noticeable.

I am getting a replacement model next week.


Yes, definitely a good idea to replace it. You don't want to be injured trying to play on a too heavy action.


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Originally Posted by AH80
My CLP is extremely difficult to play. After a week of playing on my clavinova, my teacher's CVP509 felt light.

I'm placing the coins at the end of the keys as you did and I've tried the test a number of times and it comes out as over 90g each time. The difference between mine and the demo models (I tried 3 in the same store) was really noticeable.

I am getting a replacement model next week.

I hope it's lighter. Let us know!


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I hope so too!

I did a search and I noticed at least 2 other users saying they felt their different Yamaha models had heavier actions than demo models in store.

I will definitely feedback once I have my replacement.




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Originally Posted by AH80
I hope so too!

I did a search and I noticed at least 2 other users saying they felt their different Yamaha models had heavier actions than demo models in store.

I will definitely feedback once I have my replacement.





I wonder if the action gets lighter with heavier use then? Otherwise, maybe get a deal on a demo model smile


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I wondered that too, that perhaps the demo models had 'softened' somehow with use and I kept thinking that I just needed to adjust or correct my technique. But a week later with a sore left arm I had to do something about it.

The shop assistants were particularly helpful initially - had to speak to 3 people before getting help. None of them mentioned any kind of breaking in period. Yamaha HQ even said that my replacement should perform like the demo models.


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Originally Posted by AH80
I wondered that too, that perhaps the demo models had 'softened' somehow with use and I kept thinking that I just needed to adjust or correct my technique. But a week later with a sore left arm I had to do something about it.

The shop assistants were particularly helpful initially - had to speak to 3 people before getting help. None of them mentioned any kind of breaking in period. Yamaha HQ even said that my replacement should perform like the demo models.

I wonder if you can have them (or you can go) test the DP before they deliver it to make sure it matches the demo.


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Now figure may be figures. I find all this interesting for my beginner edification. laugh

Interestingly I played a 575 couple o' weeks ago and also the GF II on CA 67. The 575 felt lighter, more nimble for faster playing of notes, and the keys offering less resistance, to me it felt like that anyway. All in all I found it less hard work. The superficial view of the coins above would not paint that picture.

Often much of a deal is made of the static down weight on the yammies, on the models below the 585 anyway without the counter weights I gather, since it is rather high versus the dynamic down weight, so the story goes mostly I gather.

I suppose it may not be as authentic an action compared to an acoustic versus that of the grand feel in the Kawai, which simulates that whole thing better. I believe from reading here that is the argument often made for that.

Anyway I would a thought, an important point, for the coins it is the static down weight that needs to be overcome to get the measurement, so that is what the figures are reflecting.

In turn, it seems to me, it says nothing about dynamic resistance, and that is the resistance that one actually experiences when the key is in motion, which will be 99% of the time what you are fighting, the key resistance during motion.

It's the old static friction, as opposed to dynamic friction argument, both are at work, but in practice what it feels like to me, the one you are fighting with is the latter ... and mostly defines how hard it is to work the keys .... seems to me. After all, to overcome the static component, it is a fraction of nothing, in real time anyway.

In any case CLP 575, I found it a very enjoyable action, it was light enough for me to play being used to my Casio. I found the static down weight no issue really, to put it in comparison, the difference between the static hump to overcome, and a letoff or escapement bump, the latter felt like much more of a noticeable effect since it is for a few degrees of the key travel where you can feel it getting in your way.

Now, also a big disclaimer, I got no clue about acoustic grand actions, and used to my Casio keys and of beginner status, so add some salt smile

With that out o' the way, summing up, when I think of it in terms how I put it above, why I think that difference in action between grand feel II and that of the yammies is what it is, and how I felt it, it all makes a little more sense to me, whatever the coins tell us, I believe it's only small part of the story.

The figures above would give the impression that the Kawai of Morodiene ( granted, it is GF 1, not GF 2 that I tried ) is lighter to play, but I did not not get that impression from the grand feel 2 CA67 sample versus the action in the CLP 545 and 575 I tried in the shop that day.

The letoff or escapement on the GF2 was much more severe than on the yammies too I noticed. I wouldn't be surprised if the key moved slowly with enough coins to just about overcome it, so it moves slowly enough, then I highly suspect on the Kawai especially it likely would stop on the escapement bump, and not go all the way down.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 12/11/15 11:51 AM.

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I was tempted to do that but I'm not sure where they hold the stock. I will ask when they call to arrange a delivery time. As it is, they don't believe that the action could be different. My sister who's a non piano player also agrees that the action feels completely different to the ones we played on. Hence, I did the down weight test to gauge more objectively.

I wish Yamaha would release weight data so that I could directly compare.

Thank you, I really appreciate all your help.

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