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Originally Posted by Hakki


That is more than enough hatred I can tolerate.



Hatred is not always the reason for criticism.

That's true whether you're receiving criticism from the board members or other people are receiving criticism from Valentina Lisitsa.

One avoids considering the possible merits of that criticism by calling it hatred or scapegoating at one's peril.


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Originally Posted by Nikolas
She has the right to speak her mind and hopefully she'll pay dearly for what she's been saying and spreading! If there's something illegal going on, then authorities should deal with this.

I'm interested in your perspective as a Greek....which tweets are the ones you dislike and think she should pay for?


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Originally Posted by pianoman9
Here's the NPR story:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivec...age-takes-toronto-canceling-two-pianists


Amazing how fast news travels these days! VL mentioned
the free concert on 4/10 on her Facebook page, and this
story mentions how even this performance was cancelled,
due to the church host getting menacing phone calls!

Astounding how quick info travels these days!

And if you read the story, incredible how even the substitute
pianist got pressured to back out!

So what will happen....just the orchestra with no pianist?

It will sound like ****!!!!

grin


The minister of the church said clearly and unequivocally that they never received threats. That was Lisitsa's story (that there were threats) and it was directly denied by the church. The actual reason for the cancellation was given by the minister who said that the church would never associate themselves with her based on the offensive nature of her writings.

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Originally Posted by sophial
Originally Posted by pianoman9
Here's the NPR story:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivec...age-takes-toronto-canceling-two-pianists


Amazing how fast news travels these days! VL mentioned
the free concert on 4/10 on her Facebook page, and this
story mentions how even this performance was cancelled,
due to the church host getting menacing phone calls!

Astounding how quick info travels these days!

And if you read the story, incredible how even the substitute
pianist got pressured to back out!

So what will happen....just the orchestra with no pianist?

It will sound like ****!!!!

grin


The minister of the church said clearly and unequivocally that they never received threats. That was Lisitsa's story (that there were threats) and it was directly denied by the church. The actual reason for the cancellation was given by the minister who said that the church would never associate themselves with her based on the offensive nature of her writings.


You are correct that this was VL's version of what happened,
but where did you read that the church cancelled on their own accord? Links?

I'm glad she's sticking to her guns, although I have to admit that the Tweets were kinda weird, and rather uncivilized!

But there you go. Classical musicians do not fit your mold of what they "should" or "ought" to be.

Same thing with Yuja Wang and her ultra short and sexy dresses! She refused to give in....she's the boss...!

Music should be separate from Politics?? LOL!

GET REAL!

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Originally Posted by pianoman9
But there you go. Classical musicians do not fit your mold of what they "should" or "ought" to be.
Neither do lawyers, doctors, engineers, sanitation workers nor anyone else for that matter.
Quote
Same thing with Yuja Wang and her ultra short and sexy dresses! She refused to give in....she's the boss...!
VL's personal reaction to the abysmal situation in the Ukraine and Ms. Wang's insistence on wearing ultra short dresses are not quite the "same thing"......

Perhaps this thread has run its course.



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Who was donor behind the cancellation? We need to identify it.


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pianoman9, here is the information and link

From thestar.com: (Toronto Star)

"John Suk, minister at Lawrence Park Community Church, where the performance was to be held, told the Star in an email that he would never give permission for the pianist to perform at his church.
“It is our belief, as Christians, that we must be ambassadors of reconciliation . . . especially on pressing matters of race,” he wrote. “For that reason we would not under any circumstances invite or condone a concert by Valentina Lisitsa at our church.”


http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2015/04/10/for-valentina-lisitsa-not-one-note-of-regret.html

Last edited by sophial; 04/12/15 04:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by pianoman9
But there you go. Classical musicians do not fit your mold of what they "should" or "ought" to be.
Neither do lawyers, doctors, engineers, sanitation workers nor anyone else for that matter.
Quote
Same thing with Yuja Wang and her ultra short and sexy dresses! She refused to give in....she's the boss...!
VL's personal reaction to the abysmal situation in the Ukraine and Ms. Wang's insistence on wearing ultra short dresses are not quite the "same thing"......

Perhaps this thread has run its course.




It's precisely the same thing in terms of freedom
of expression of the individual (either political statements
on the internet, or how one dresses in performance),
versus how the public expects the artist to behave.

The only way to remove politics from music
is to remove the people, which is impossible.

The moderators here at PW are strict, so I must
commend them for allowing this important thread to
continue....

Last edited by pianoman9; 04/12/15 07:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by pianoman9
It's precisely the same thing in terms of freedom
of expression of the individual (either political statements
on the internet, or how one dresses in performance),
versus how the public expects the artist to behave.

I'll make a deal with you: you show me where people are protesting the clothing design a concert pianist wears (or doesn't wear) off stage, and I'll agree then that maybe clothing design off stage is the equivalent of political statements off stage.

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Indeed. When everything is political, the truly political is trivialized.

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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by pianoman9
It's precisely the same thing in terms of freedom
of expression of the individual (either political statements
on the internet, or how one dresses in performance),
versus how the public expects the artist to behave.

I'll make a deal with you: you show me where people are protesting the clothing design a concert pianist wears (or doesn't wear) off stage, and I'll agree then that maybe clothing design off stage is the equivalent of political statements off stage.


I'll make a deal with you: I don't give a ******-****
whether you agree with anything i say or not!

Obviously people aren't sending death threats to
Yuja Wang, so clearly they aren't equivalent in that
degree.

But you're missing the point, which is freedom of individual
expression versus society, public institutions, and governments.

VL's situation is a bit more serious, but the concept
is the same.


Last edited by pianoman9; 04/12/15 08:08 PM.
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In the holy name of levity, of lightening things up, of having a little fun, here's a little Kapustin played by one of the THOUSANDS of aspiring young pianists out there, ALL of whom come equipped with impressive technique..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdNqZVao-CA

oh my... I just saw some of the "Art" on the wall!!!

Please avert your gaze.

Last edited by johnlewisgrant; 04/12/15 08:14 PM.

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Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
In the holy name of levity, of lightening things up, of having a little fun, here's a little Kapustin played by one of the THOUSANDS of aspiring young pianists out there, ALL of whom come equipped with impressive technique..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdNqZVao-CA

oh my... I just saw some of the "Art" on the wall!!!

Please avert your gaze.


The "art" on the wall was very nice grin - and everything else about the video was impressive - including the Hailun 218 !!






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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by johnlewisgrant
In the holy name of levity, of lightening things up, of having a little fun, here's a little Kapustin played by one of the THOUSANDS of aspiring young pianists out there, ALL of whom come equipped with impressive technique..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdNqZVao-CA

oh my... I just saw some of the "Art" on the wall!!!

Please avert your gaze.


The "art" on the wall was very nice grin - and everything else about the video was impressive - including the Hailun 218 !!



Mea Culpa... I thought I'd sneak the make of the piano by . . you know... so fixed on that one Modigliani-esque painting, you hardly even notice the music...


Bach, A Sequenced Well-tempered Clavier Books I & II complete
https://soundcloud.com/johnlgrant/sets/bach-well-tempered-clavier-1

Other piano works
https://www.youtube.com/c/BachIdealized/playlists




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Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Nikolas
She has the right to speak her mind and hopefully she'll pay dearly for what she's been saying and spreading! If there's something illegal going on, then authorities should deal with this.

I'm interested in your perspective as a Greek....which tweets are the ones you dislike and think she should pay for?
i'm actually talking about the fact that she went public on a business deal and the insides of a business transaction. Trust bonds have been broken and I doubt there will be any kind of trust from now on towards her! frown

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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Originally Posted by phantomFive
Originally Posted by Nikolas
She has the right to speak her mind and hopefully she'll pay dearly for what she's been saying and spreading! If there's something illegal going on, then authorities should deal with this.

I'm interested in your perspective as a Greek....which tweets are the ones you dislike and think she should pay for?
i'm actually talking about the fact that she went public on a business deal and the insides of a business transaction. Trust bonds have been broken and I doubt there will be any kind of trust from now on towards her! frown

I thought your perspective might be interesting....I was right.

For myself, if I were in that situation, I would refuse to be silent on the matter unless they paid me extra. However, if I am in Greece, I will be sure to be more silent from now on.


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If you come to Greece let me know, so we can meet! grin

Really though, I find that things in Greece are completely out of hand. Everyone complaining about everything, for ever. Which is why I generally try to keep my mouth closed.

I do think that this is not an exercise of free speech, or human rights or whatever. This is someone believing to be out of reach, only to found out she's not.

Plus, in all honesty, if you were to be silenced with more money, that means that your silence can be bought which, if found out, is even worst, don't you think? wink

EDIT:

Pianoman9, I've mentioned it before, but...

It appears that people affiliated with VL, or herself, or anyhow someone who agrees with her decided to make a comparison between this situation and the Charlie Hebdo killings.

I find it obnoxious, to say the least!

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Originally Posted by pianoman9
Originally Posted by Michael Sayers
Originally Posted by pianoman9
It's precisely the same thing in terms of freedom
of expression of the individual (either political statements
on the internet, or how one dresses in performance),
versus how the public expects the artist to behave.

I'll make a deal with you: you show me where people are protesting the clothing design a concert pianist wears (or doesn't wear) off stage, and I'll agree then that maybe clothing design off stage is the equivalent of political statements off stage.


I'll make a deal with you: I don't give a ******-****
whether you agree with anything i say or not!

Obviously people aren't sending death threats to
Yuja Wang, so clearly they aren't equivalent in that
degree.

But you're missing the point, which is freedom of individual
expression versus society, public institutions, and governments.

VL's situation is a bit more serious, but the concept
is the same.

If there is something I've misunderstood, or which you've misunderstood, then by discussing it maybe we can sort it out.

Both of these are categories of freedom of expression, I give you that. And both can be "versus" society, public institutions and governments - definitely this which you say is true.

Let's break this down into some propositions . . .

Proposition One - speech is compulsory in both categories. Whatever one wears (or not, down to nothing) in clothing design, as long as one has a body it is impossible to not fit somewhere in that spectrum. The same with political statements: the person who says nothing, that person says that silence is justified in this world and is okay.

Proposition Two - what is said in both categories is liable to be understood with consideration of context, and context defines the meaning of what is said and to persons other than the speaker. I live in Sweden. Here, when the weather is nice outside, women breastfeed everywhere including restaurants and public transport . . . it is not "versus" anything, it is just life close to nature in Sweden. In Texas, where I am from, this would be "versus" something. In some U.S. school districts, wearing a red shirt is not allowed because it may say "I am a gang member" - in Sweden, there is no such context or association of clothing colour to crime.

Proposition Three - and this is key here - speech with words says much more about the speaker and the fundamentals of our relationship to the speaker than speech with clothing design. One can misinterpret a red shirt; one can not misinterpret the words of Valentina Lisitsa. The world is all about our relationship to the other persons in it. What one wears (or not) can be taken as a challenge, yet if Valentina Lisitsa had been posting photos of herself . . . let's just say, being "Swedish" . . . or wearing a red shirt . . . her performances would not be imperiled. Saying that Ukrainians are of no value as human beings, even though there are millions of Ukrainians including within the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, this is what has imperiled her. How can an orchestra C.E.O. feel like he is doing positive, productive work in this world, with someone like that on the stage? Why should the Ukrainian orchestra members have to work with her? V.L. has tread into an area where no pianist ever could have gone with choice of dress length. This is about someone who doesn't appear to properly value other human beings, and yet wishes to be a voice for Liszt's music at the piano, among other composers. That inharmonicity just can't work. Russians have NO MORE OR LESS value than Ukrainians, Swedes, Americans, or any other nation's persons. We are all here in this world, and we all need to find a way to set aside our differences and get along peacefully and constructively, somehow. Classical musicians who are against this in 2015 might as well attempt to walk through a briar patch sans attire.

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Originally Posted by Nikolas
Plus, in all honesty, if you were to be silenced with more money, that means that your silence can be bought which, if found out, is even worst, don't you think? wink

lol no, it means I'm a good negotiator!

In California, it's actually fairly standard.....companies have non-disclosure agreements, and expect people to sign them in various situations. Sometimes that kind of agreement can make it difficult to find another job. In that case, it's fine to sign the thing but make sure you get compensation!


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Originally Posted by Michael Sayers


If there is something I've misunderstood, or which you've misunderstood, then by discussing it maybe we can sort it out.

Both of these are categories of freedom of expression, I give you that. And both can be "versus" society, public institutions and governments - definitely this which you say is true.

Let's break this down into some propositions . . .

Proposition One - speech is compulsory in both categories. Whatever one wears (or not, down to nothing) in clothing design, as long as one has a body it is impossible to not fit somewhere in that spectrum. The same with political statements: the person who says nothing, that person says that silence is justified in this world and is okay.

Proposition Two - what is said in both categories is liable to be understood with consideration of context, and context defines the meaning of what is said and to persons other than the speaker. I live in Sweden. Here, when the weather is nice outside, women breastfeed everywhere including restaurants and public transport . . . it is not "versus" anything, it is just life close to nature in Sweden. In Texas, where I am from, this would be "versus" something. In some U.S. school districts, wearing a red shirt is not allowed because it may say "I am a gang member" - in Sweden, there is no such context or association of clothing colour to crime.

Proposition Three - and this is key here - speech with words says much more about the speaker and the fundamentals of our relationship to the speaker than speech with clothing design. One can misinterpret a red shirt; one can not misinterpret the words of Valentina Lisitsa. The world is all about our relationship to the other persons in it. What one wears (or not) can be taken as a challenge, yet if Valentina Lisitsa had been posting photos of herself . . . let's just say, being "Swedish" . . . or wearing a red shirt . . . her performances would not be imperiled. Saying that Ukrainians are of no value as human beings, even though there are millions of Ukrainians including within the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, this is what has imperiled her. How can an orchestra C.E.O. feel like he is doing positive, productive work in this world, with someone like that on the stage? Why should the Ukrainian orchestra members have to work with her? V.L. has tread into an area where no pianist ever could have gone with choice of dress length. This is about someone who doesn't appear to properly value other human beings, and yet wishes to be a voice for Liszt's music at the piano, among other composers. That inharmonicity just can't work. Russians have NO MORE OR LESS value than Ukrainians, Swedes, Americans, or any other nation's persons. We are all here in this world, and we all need to find a way to set aside our differences and get along peacefully and constructively, somehow. Classical musicians who are against this in 2015 might as well attempt to walk through a briar patch sans attire.


You seem to think there is an objective interpretation to
words, which is foolish.

VL has a right to express her views. We don't know her
relationship to her country and her history, so perhaps
we shouldn't judge so quickly.

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