2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
45 members (Alfred La Fleur, CraiginNZ, CyberGene, Cutec, Carey, ALEXANDER DYKER, chopin_r_us, Calavera, CharlesXX, 6 invisible), 520 guests, and 427 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 797
I
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
I
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT

I think the only time they can confiscate is when you are importing. I don't think they have the authority to take a piano away from someone who already has it in their possession.


Under ordinary circumstances Customs & Border Protection can issue a Request for Redelivery (back into Customs' custody) up to 30 days after release to the importer. If the release to the importer was conditional, such as if it needs approval from Fish & Wildlife, the redelivery period can extend much longer.

Larry.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697



Originally Posted by iLaw
Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT

I think the only time they can confiscate is when you are importing. I don't think they have the authority to take a piano away from someone who already has it in their possession.


Under ordinary circumstances Customs & Border Protection can issue a Request for Redelivery (back into Customs' custody) up to 30 days after release to the importer. If the release to the importer was conditional, such as if it needs approval from Fish & Wildlife, the redelivery period can extend much longer.

Larry.


That is good to know.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
R
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
Not to pick at the details, but it would seem to me that the size/weight of the rest of the article shouldn't be a part of the equation - the AMOUNT of ivory should be the only factor.
I don't know how many tusks would be needed to make how many key sticks, but I suspect that it is a very selective and therefore quite wasteful process.

"...especially if like pianos the ivory makes up a small percentage of the article"
Hmmm, where the "article" is a key stick or the rest of a 12 ft grand ?

With all due respect, I think the quantity of ivory consumed INTO the manufacturing process is what would represent any "threat to the species".
Surrounding the ivory with several hundred pounds of wood and other materials is irrelevant.

I believe that any ivory currently in use should be allowed to stay in use and move freely, should also be allowed to be re-cycled.
Already harvested ivory doesn't pose a threat to living elephants, etc.
Some arbitrary but reasonable cut off date should be set.


Vaguely remembering a case of a violin player who's bow was confiscated at the Canadian border because it had an ivory "button" on it.
He wasn't "importing" it per se, merely traveling to a concert.

New Jersey;
Hmmm, it would seem that import agents will merely ship to holding locations in other States, then ship into NJ after 31 days.
There could be a side business for piano showrooms, rent some air conditioned humidity controlled space while keeping the showroom looking FULL without bearing the burden of carrying costs laugh

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by R_B
Not to pick at the details, but it would seem to me that the size/weight of the rest of the article shouldn't be a part of the equation - the AMOUNT of ivory should be the only factor.
I don't know how many tusks would be needed to make how many key sticks, but I suspect that it is a very selective and therefore quite wasteful process.

"...especially if like pianos the ivory makes up a small percentage of the article"
Hmmm, where the "article" is a key stick or the rest of a 12 ft grand ?

With all due respect, I think the quantity of ivory consumed INTO the manufacturing process is what would represent any "threat to the species".
Surrounding the ivory with several hundred pounds of wood and other materials is irrelevant.

I believe that any ivory currently in use should be allowed to stay in use and move freely, should also be allowed to be re-cycled.
Already harvested ivory doesn't pose a threat to living elephants, etc.
Some arbitrary but reasonable cut off date should be set.


Vaguely remembering a case of a violin player who's bow was confiscated at the Canadian border because it had an ivory "button" on it.
He wasn't "importing" it per se, merely traveling to a concert.

New Jersey;
Hmmm, it would seem that import agents will merely ship to holding locations in other States, then ship into NJ after 31 days.
There could be a side business for piano showrooms, rent some air conditioned humidity controlled space while keeping the showroom looking FULL without bearing the burden of carrying costs laugh


Just remember no elephant ivory is being used today by piano manufacturers. The only area of concern here is the ability to sell or trade an old piano with ivory. No American manufacturer has used ivory since 1956. No one in the industry is arguing for the use of recently harvested ivory so the sale of a 1920's era piano with ivory keys does not represent any threat to elephants.

The New Jersey law is unfortunate in that the implementation and enforcement will be very expensive in regards to pianos not only for the government but for the owners that can't get their pianos serviced. The New York law was written with exceptions described as percentages and weights will be considered in other states as these laws evolve.

What the opponents of these laws are trying to convey is that with pianos not only is the ivory that the government is banning old it is not the reason that people buy an older piano. They buy a Steinway or Mason & Hamlin because of the sound and performance. But because prior to plastic ivory was the only available material with the resistance to wear it was used as a key covering material. As soon as plastic became available piano companies got rid of ivory.

So just remember the Governments of these states are crafting these laws so that it will be illegal to sell or trade an OLD piano with ivory. No one in the piano industry is arguing to be able to reinstate ivory as a key covering material.

Last edited by S. Phillips; 02/12/15 01:03 PM.

Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
R
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
Thanks Sally,
I think the regulations are entirely unreasonable.
There seems to have been some weird disconnect (or false connect) between what was and what is.

Perhaps AT ONE TIME the demand for ivory WAS piano industry driven - but that shouldn't lead to unreasonable restrictions on the movement of what was harvested decades ago - IMO, etc.

Elephants were blamed for desertification somewhere... though I don't recall exactly where/when.
There was a huge government sponsored "culling" {polite euphemism for SLAUGHTER) and some time later the conservationists figured that they had been WRONG all along, elephants and other large animals actually ENRICH the eco-structure.

I suspect that there are piano owners/collectors who WANT new ivory key caps on old pianos as part of an "authentic" restoration - original materials, hide glue, etc.

BTW, how many horses ...never mind, there is a surplus horse population laugh


EDIT:
I found this;
http://www.fastcoexist.com/1681518/...t-that-herds-of-cows-can-save-the-planet
:END EDIT

Last edited by R_B; 02/13/15 09:08 AM.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
In the past ivory craftsmen have been able to reclaim old ivory that was imported years ago to make ivory keytops for restoration but that will probably not be possible. Because the Federal regulations have not had the rules announced yet no one really knows what will happen.

One old tusk from someone's pre ban collection could restore 40-70 keyboards. I have spoken with these craftsmen who also do plastic keys and they are all in a sort of limbo about what to do. It has now been a year since the Federal announcement but the rules have never been announced.

Everyone is now relying on this chart. As you can see some allowances have been made for musical instruments but we really don't know what will happen. As you can see the chart says that the proposed rule is supposed to be published in late 2014 so right now we have no idea when it is really going to be announced.

http://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 95
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 95
It's outrageous that sport-hunted trophies are exempt from these regulations.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
I don't understand that either but of course the rules have not been written yet. What we have now is a temporary situation that could all change very radically with the written rules.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
R
R_B Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 969
I am sure that some will regard the "antique" definition of 100 years as too long.

I was surprised at the 40 to 70 keyboards per tusk estimate - just LOOKING at my (ALL plastic) keyboard it seems like a lot of area.
It probably depends how the tusk is cut and how much/little of the centre material is usable.
It may not be like having to quarter saw wood for particular applications vs being able to slab saw it for yield.
No matter, I'm wandering as I am wondering.

Thanks again Sally.

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,012
E
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,012
I think the reasoning for the "Trophy" hunting exemption is that these trophy kills are legally done to manage herd size in protected areas that the carrying capacity for elephants is pretty well worked out. They would most likely be Bulls because one bull can mate with many females.

I have been told the best ivory for keytops comes from female elephants because the central nerve is more symmetric than in male tusks. Thus a higher yield from each tusk.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: toneman1@me.com
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272
J
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272
Originally Posted by R_B
Some arbitrary but reasonable cut off date should be set.


1990. Ivory use in piano manufacturing ceased worldwide by 1990.



-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
Using dates will be very difficult. Serial numbers of older instruments are not often found anywhere but the old Pierce Piano Atlas. It is really helpful and the only thing we have but is not really accurate enough for exact dates. The whole industry is especially confusing for non piano geeks because of the sale and resale of old piano firms, or their names for marketing reasons.

I think the only real solution will be a measurement of weight. They have to establish a maximum weight or just eliminate all musical instruments. Documenting to the satisfaction of the government any other way will always be difficult.

Last edited by S. Phillips; 02/20/15 10:12 PM.

Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272
J
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
Unobtanium Subscriber
6000 Post Club Member
J
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,272

To use 1990 as the date, we'd only need to determine which makers existed at that time, and for each, determine the cutoff serial number. Probably two or three typewritten pages. Maybe also a list of makes that ceased production prior to 1990 -- The whole idea is that up to 1990 pianos are exempt, and thereafter they didn't use ivory, so enforcement gets very easy: just don't bother with pianos at all.



-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Knabe Grand # 10927
Yamaha CP33
Kawai FS690
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
Here is the complete text of the California law. It seems to have an exemption for pianos that were made prior to 1975. That will cover everything except for European instruments made until 1990.

Those of you in California should at least make your objections known.. The keyboards on these later European pianos often had one piece ivory and does not have the telltale seam between the larger portion of the natural.

The owner must have documentation that proves that the piano was made before 1975. All of that will depend on what the State of California will accept. If the company is out of business the state might not find the older versions of the The Piano Atlas acceptable.


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 57
P
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 57
Hi Sally. I think you forgot a link to the text of the law? Looking forward to reading it.
Thanks,
Patrick


Patrick Draine, Registered Piano Technician (PTG)
Draine Piano Service
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697


Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 350
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 350
Sally, Again, thanks for doing the Lord's work on this.


Mason-Hamlin "A" and Schlicker 2 manual and pedal pipe organ
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 32
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 32
I have just moved back to England from New Zealand. I had originally brought my ENGLISH piano made in ENGLAND to New Zealand 10 years ago. It was a 70-80 year old custom made(hence no serial number) grand piano with ivory keys and played beautifully. I was not allowed to bring it BACK TO ENGLAND because I could not prove it was old. Regardless of that, I could not find one removal company willing to take it on.

I ended up selling this piano I paid $12000 for in 1995 for $3000. It is heartbreaking. Now I don't have money to replace it and have to settle for an upright.

I am just a casualty of this new regulation.

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,372
N
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,372
Hmmm......Very interesting (and timely, for me) thread.

I have been offered (free of charge, other than moving costs) an antique (circa 1910) Fischer upright piano that has ivory keys. I am going to inspect it tomorrow. Of course, my main focus will be its overall condition, feel and sound. But this ivory issue perhaps introduces new considerations.

I live in New York State, and don't really expect to ever sell or trade the piano in the future (but you never know for sure).

Based upon the regulations discussed in this thread, would I just be acquiring a headache, in terms of a) keyboard repairability and b) legal issues?

Thanks.



Bert
[Linked Image] [Linked Image] [Linked Image]
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 697
Bert,

In theory you should be ok in New York State if you try to sell it but you will have to be able to prove the date of manufacture. My guess it that it has no real value anyway so trying to sell it will be futile in the future unless you have clear docs on the age or replace the ivory keys with plastic.

Either way I can't see spending the money to do so. If it is at all usable, just play it until it it is not. Most of these are just too worn and old to be of much use and they are not worth rebuilding. It will have zero value in the market anyway.



Sally Phillips
Owner/ Technician
Piano Perfect, LLC
Columbus, GA

www.steinwaypiano.com
Acoustic Piano Technical Consultant - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
http://www.pianobuyer.com/current-issue/07a-should-i-have-my-piano-rebuilt.html
Page 3 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Fingering help
by DJmeurer - 09/22/21 12:52 AM
Stories from behind the piano
by PhilipInChina - 09/21/21 10:30 PM
Tweaking Solo Piano ???
by DigitalMusicProduc - 09/21/21 06:32 PM
FP10 - speaker question
by Sunnek - 09/21/21 06:14 PM
Ties in Chopin Op. 62 #1
by Mark Alexander - 09/21/21 05:22 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics209,230
Posts3,134,181
Members102,797
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5