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Hi guys,

I'm in need of some guidance here. Besides stating the obvious, in the sense that HI-XL is a more advanced technology, what I'd like to know is: just how much more advanced is it?

I'm deciding between an ES7 and an MP7 and right now the main reason I'm not pulling the trigger with the ES7 is the difference in sound technology. Is it worth it paying around 35% more for the MP7?

BTW, my local Kawai dealer doesn't have the MP7 available right now, and it won't be until June probably, so I'd have to get it through a private seller.

Cheers!

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How good is your ear? How good might your ear be in a few years? I personally can not make out the looping in PHI. But of course my ears are untrained etc.

The order is Harmonic Imaging, then Harmonic Imaging with 88 keys, then Progressive Harmonic Imaging, then Ultra (Progressive?) HI, then HI-XL. Hard details are not really available except that of course the sample sizes became bigger. But that have have a number of reasons (sample quality, sample length, more layers per tone etc.).

Have a look (well, hear) at the samples of the DPBSD Project: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103/The_DPBSD_Project!.html

And see/hear if you can tell the difference.


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Originally Posted by upbeat
I'm in need of some guidance here. Besides stating the obvious, in the sense that HI-XL is a more advanced technology, what I'd like to know is: just how much more advanced is it?

ES7 is PHI, MP7 is HI-XL. I just did a brief comparison of UPHI vs HI-XL here.

Perusing the DPBSD results for PHI there is the CN33. Let's compare attack and loop sample times:

CN33 (PHI)
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 1.8,2.1,2.1,1.8,1.7,1.6,1.1,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 0.8,0.8,0.7,0.8,0.7,0.7,0.6,? seconds.

CA95 (HI-XL)
- Attack sample lengths are (C1:C8): 4.4,3.6,4.2,4.3,3.7,3.0,?,? seconds.
- Loop sample lengths are (C1:C8): 1.3,1.0,1.0,0.8,0.8,?,?,? seconds.


Loop sample times are roughly the same, attack samples are significantly longer (as these things go) in the HI-XL. You might want to download the MP3s of these (CN33, CA95) and listen to the looping yourself before making a decision.

When it comes to loopers I find it difficult to invest in anything other than the very newest very low end models, and good value older used models. Looping cripples an otherwise fine instrument so they're just not worth much IMO. Buying a brand new Kawai DP with aging Kawai sampling technology doesn't seem like a good move but YMMV.

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Most here seem happy with the ES7, so I assume it's fine to be progressive. Being ultra-progresiive implies more progressivenes; however, that might not be the case. One thing I'm certain of is the fact that the "XL" stands for Extra-Large!

As most here will suggest, you will need to play around with the progressive before attempting the ultra-progressive; however, I caution not to expect much from the ultra.

In conclusion: These fancy names mean absolutely nothing. The fact is that the technology behind it all is good ol' sampling. Yes, bigger is better when it comes to sampling, but terms like XL, or Ultra are simply too vague when it comes down to an objective comparison between the progressives.

When something truly innovative comes around, manufacturers don't beat around the bush. For example, SN from Roland is a step forward; which is why Roland does not hesitate in describing how the decay is physically modeled. That is crucial information that truly gives you an idea of the underlying technology. If Roland simply says "Super Natural is several times larger than Natural," and stops at that, we can assume that Super Natural ain't that Super.

In a nutshell, go software!

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Originally Posted by upbeat
I'm deciding between an ES7 and an MP7 and right now the main reason I'm not pulling the trigger with the ES7 is the difference in sound technology. Is it worth it paying around 35% more for the MP7?

In the U.S., the ES7 is more expensive than the MP7! (The MP7 is much more capable overall, but the ES7 has speakers...)

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Thanks guys! You all make very good points, especially on the whole branding thing for sound technologies while not that much changes. Maybe I should't pay that much attention to the sound engine and take advantage of the possibility of making the purchase at the authorized dealer.

I too find it curious that an MP7 is around $4K and an ES7 around $3K here ("here" would be Buenos Aires, Argentina, btw) and it´s the other way around in the US.

Also, could any users of these comment on the sound tweaking possibilities on non AP sounds. More specifically, I'd need a DX7 kind of sound for a few songs I play, and the Modern EP just doesn't cut it out of the box for me. How realistic would it be to think I could get it close to an original Yamaha DX7? (I know I just can't get there on a Nord, for instance).

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Is Kawai Argentina official distribuitor (Breyer) importing MP7?
It doesn't appear on their website...
I wonder how much would cost a MP11 shocked


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Marcos, en Breyer me dicen que ahora el mes que viene llega el modelo de muestra, que tienen que mandar a inspección en Seguridad Eléctrica. Una vez que tengan el sellito de ellos lo van a empezar a traer (estimo que para mitad de año con suerte). Me parece que se deberían apurar un poquito igual, porque les queda un solo MP6 en stock. El MP11 no lo traen a Argentina ni en sueños.

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Originally Posted by upbeat
Marcos, en Breyer me dicen que ahora el mes que viene llega el modelo de muestra, que tienen que mandar a inspección en Seguridad Eléctrica. Una vez que tengan el sellito de ellos lo van a empezar a traer (estimo que para mitad de año con suerte). Me parece que se deberían apurar un poquito igual, porque les queda un solo MP6 en stock. El MP11 no lo traen a Argentina ni en sueños.


So you need something similar to UL approval for the product to be available in your country?

UL is Underwriter Labs, which in the US is the electrical safety people that make sure a product is up to current standards. You will see the "UL Approval" on the label of most products sold in the US.

Tony



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upbeat, to answer your queries:

- The main difference between PHI (ES7) and HI-XL (MP7) is that HI-XL offers longer attack portions and a broader range of expression. As a result, the amount of sample memory required for each key is larger.

- The ES7's stock 'Modern EP' sound is usable, and with effects it can sound pretty good. However it goes without saying that the MP7 has a wider selection of such sounds, with far greater tweakability. What was your problem with the Nord DX7, by the way? I have heard some user-created patches on the NS2 that sound very good.

In my opinion, unless you really need built-in speakers, the MP7 is the more powerful instrument.

Best of luck with your purchase.

Kind regards,
James
x


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Originally Posted by dewster
When it comes to loopers I find it difficult to invest in anything other than the very newest very low end models, and good value older used models. Looping cripples an otherwise fine instrument so they're just not worth much IMO. Buying a brand new Kawai DP with aging Kawai sampling technology doesn't seem like a good move but YMMV.


Thank you dewster, the cheque's in the post. wink


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James, you may like this recent praise of the MP11 by PianoManChuck:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZF-F4JQ9mA


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He got his cheque, dead sure. wink

I wounder if all the Piano Men would get the new Shigeru samples of the announced CA67/CA69 series into their MP11 / MP7 for free?


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We've yet to listen to some large Shigeru demo, with lots of singing lines in the tenor range, and not that little baroque staccato pieces and cheesy pop tunes.


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Right you are!

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Originally Posted by TonyB
Originally Posted by upbeat
Marcos, en Breyer me dicen que ahora el mes que viene llega el modelo de muestra, que tienen que mandar a inspección en Seguridad Eléctrica. Una vez que tengan el sellito de ellos lo van a empezar a traer (estimo que para mitad de año con suerte). Me parece que se deberían apurar un poquito igual, porque les queda un solo MP6 en stock. El MP11 no lo traen a Argentina ni en sueños.


So you need something similar to UL approval for the product to be available in your country?

UL is Underwriter Labs, which in the US is the electrical safety people that make sure a product is up to current standards. You will see the "UL Approval" on the label of most products sold in the US.

Tony



Yes, I think that rules here are called "normas IRAM". Anyway distributors not only have to pass this 'exam', but they must endless forms to be able to get foreign currency.


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Originally Posted by lophiomys
He got his cheque, dead sure. wink

I wounder if all the Piano Men would get the new Shigeru samples of the announced CA67/CA69 series into their MP11 / MP7 for free?



No. All the Piano Men will not get the new Shigeru samples; only one, PianoManChuck, will have that privilege. We, the people (Piano Men of Piano World), will have to submit a formal petition; upon such petition, we shall petition for a competition: the winner of this -yet to be determined- competition gets to visit Kawai-Japan for a day, but sadly, still no Shigeru sample. grin

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Originally Posted by lophiomys
I wounder if all the Piano Men would get the new Shigeru samples of the announced CA67/CA69 series into their MP11 / MP7 for free?

He sold his Nord, so the answer is obviously no. laugh


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Originally Posted by Kawai James
...the cheque's in the post. wink

Thanks, but I couldn't justify the purchase of a mid to high-end looper even on Kawai's dime.

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Originally Posted by TonyB


So you need something similar to UL approval for the product to be available in your country?

UL is Underwriter Labs, which in the US is the electrical safety people that make sure a product is up to current standards. You will see the "UL Approval" on the label of most products sold in the US.

Tony



Hi Tony,

Exactly! We have a similar (and quite tedious) process over here, not to mention the hassle Marcos has already pointed out. Importing manufactured products is troublesome business right now in Argentina.

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