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Not sure why the start up time is still an issue....

Sit there and play scales and triads to warm up. When the piano is ready, make beautiful music.

Jay


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Originally Posted by bennevis
We're definitely living in different worlds....... grin

I bought a home computer (after sending off for the free Which? guide to laptops in 2012) only because work-related issues meant I had to have one at home.

But buying another £500 computer just for a digital?? crazy (and obviously having to buy software stuff, sight unseen, sound unheard & untested.......)

For someone coming into this from scratch it can make sense. The laptop is an open-ended device leading to all sorts of creative possibilities. That package price compares favourably with the cost of the MP11 alone but the component system will have a superior piano sound and a means of using any number of sample libraries to mess around with, not to mention being able to view IMSLP's free music on tap and playback of media clips when looking for ideas/listening to other performers in mid-practice.

True, it's a pity we don't get a chance to audition these libraries but that's pretty much the case across the board. Besides, there's a broad consensus about which libraries please - no one's going to be unpleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by bennevis
buying another £500 computer just for a digital?? crazy (and obviously having to buy software stuff, sight unseen, sound unheard & untested.......)


The cost of a high quality action plus a £500 computer is still a lot cheaper than a V-Piano. If you like the high end Roland actions, I think the FP-80 (and earlier FP-7F) feel much like the V-Piano, and would save someone enough money to buy the computer, numerous software piano packages, and have money left over. And since the computer is dedicated, you can leave it powered up and in place (in sleep mode) and always be ready to play in seconds. I think the special appeal of the V is in the way you can customize its modeled sound, in ways beyond what can be done with sampled pianos. Pianoteq is technologically similar, but different in its sound, and I can see where some people may prefer one or the other.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
And since the computer is dedicated, you can leave it powered up and in place (in sleep mode) and always be ready to play in seconds.


Unfortunately, in my case at least, it doesn't quite work that smoothly. I have to turn off my USB audio interface (otherwise Windows will crash when I resume it from hibernate or suspend), and then in the DAW, "reconnect" to the audio interface. I also have a similar problem with the USB MIDI connection, even though the keyboard is connected to the computer directly with a USB cable. I suspect it would work like you say (even on Windows!) if I were to use an internal audio and MIDI interface. (with the MIDI being standard MIDI - not USB). I'm not saying that all USB interfaces necessarily behave as badly as mine though.

Greg.

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Okay, I guess if you want it to work more simply, it might be worth budgeting more for the computer and getting a Mac...

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Originally Posted by sullivang
I'm not saying that all USB interfaces necessarily behave as badly as mine though.

If the driver crashes during suspend I would demand a update/bugfix from the vendor of your USB interface. Otherwise I would return and replace it with a different one.


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Originally Posted by Jay Roland
Not sure why the start up time is still an issue....

Sit there and play scales and triads to warm up. When the piano is ready, make beautiful music.

Jay


LOL...first world problems! I agree. For Two minutes I can go grab a glass of water and pet my kitties. Of course, I never shut my computer off.


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My V-Grand takes around 27 seconds to boot. I don't really care. I just fire it up and soon enough it is ready to go.

I will comment on the questioning going on in this thread toward bennevis. It was the result of posts by him and a few others that steered me toward the V-Piano and V-Grand. I am absolutely thrilled with my V-Grand. I think I understand what he is reallysaying and I also think it needs to be taken in context.

Like bennevis, Ireally don't want to be messing with a computer or other attachments to my digital piano (thoughthere are monitors required for the V-Piano from what I understand). With my V-Grand, I just have one thing to turn on ad mess with. I can connect a computer but so far I have not other than to try out Roland's editor software. Personally, I find the screens on the built-in display to be easy enough for my needs.

Also, there is a level of playing experience on the V-Grand (and, I am sure,the V-Piano) that I have not experienced on sampled digital pianos. There seems to be a responsiveness that is hard for me to describe, but I definitely experience it. A more experienced player could better describe it.

Within bennevis' experience, I am sure he is convinced the V-Piano definitely has that extra "something" that makes the experience more real for him and he has expressed it his way in his posts. I don't take offesne at what he says, and didn't prior to getting the V-Grand.

To me, if somebody expresses an opinion in a forum ad that opinion is not attacking somebody, then there really is no harm done. It is simply that person's opinion. I doubt that many here have played every digital piano out there, but there are others besides bennevis who have made at least somewhat blanket statements in their opinions on certain aspects of digital pianos.

The links that pv-88 provided to his recordings on the V-Piano seem to reasonably represent the instrument. Yes, it can be tweaked, and some people simply won't like the sound of it. But I regularly see that in the acoustic piano discussions too - some think Yamaha is too bright, or another maker is too subtle, or whatever. One size simply does not fit all. Take bennevis' comments as his opinion and leave it at that. It is unfortunate that not many of us have ever seen a V-Piano (me included), so we can't try it. But we do have pv-88's recordings.

I try to be really careful about discussing the V-Grand because it is expensive and probably few here have one and even fewer have ever seen one. I love it, but I also acknowledge quite readily that there are many very decent digital pianos out there these days, and I would be happy with just about any of them. But again, that is just my opinion. smile

Tony

Last edited by TonyB; 12/22/14 09:09 PM.

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It's not likeI don't believe bennevis or do not appreciate his love of V-Piano but what got me truly interested in one is watching and comparing Roland demo videos on HP-508 & V-Grand performed by the same pianist.

BTW, why can't we have something like an AG that does physical modeling?

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Originally Posted by littlebirdblue
why can't we have something like an AG that does physical modeling?


No reason on earth. Connect a computer with Pianoteq 5 to an AG - or a very high quality keybaord such as a Kawai with GF such as the MP11 and you've got it.


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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by littlebirdblue
why can't we have something like an AG that does physical modeling?


No reason on earth. Connect a computer with Pianoteq 5 to an AG - or a very high quality keybaord such as a Kawai with GF such as the MP11 and you've got it.


V-Grand = AG + Pianoteq?


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Well, both would be modelled pianos with high quality keyboard actions - the AG being a genuine acoustic action (not that that necessarily means it's better).

But they certainly wouldn't feel the same, play the same, connect with the player the same or sound the same. In fact the typical sound of the V piano is very different from Pianoteq.

Also, there are different appoaches to modifying the sounds in both of those systems. So, no, V-Grand does not = AG + Pianoteq. But they're both examples of highly developed piano modelling, with high end keyboards.


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I don't know if having a PC or Mac running software such as Pianoteq via midi would provide as comlete and immediate an experience as a V-Grand. If it does, then it would be well worth the effort to get such asetup working that cohesively. The V-Grand is definitely very "real" in my experience. I ran Pianoteq on my ultrabook (i7based and quite fast) with my Casio PX-5S. It worked well, but to me comparing that to the V-Grand is sort of like comparing a real flight simulator to the flight simulator software running on a PC. In reality, the PC with Pianoteq provides a much better experience than flight simullator software, but I don't really know how else to make the comparison. There is something about how Roland put together the V-Grand that makes for a very real experience playing piano. It may well be that the current generation of consoles by Roland and Kawai come close to that experience, but there really is something to Roland's modelling that samples don't capture.

I don't want to get into the idea that it is either the V-Grand or nothing, but I do want to indicate that there is something about modelling ad Roland's packaging of the V-Grand that gives the player a very real experience. Whether that same level of experience in all its detail can be captured by a keyboard connected to a computer via midi only somebody who has put in the time, attending to all the detailsthat Roland to make the V-Grand could really say. I am not a technophobe, havinng been a software engineer for more than 20 years, but I really don't care to spend my free time muddling about with computers at home. I want to simply power on my V-Grand and play - simple, no hassle, magnificent experience.

Tony


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Our Mac laptops are old and I haven't really tried to improve our setup so maybe the problems we're having are at our end. Our local Roland dealer doesn't have a V-Piano or V-Grand in stock so I can only go on what I read on internet and what I hear on youtube videos, which is not a great way to be choosing a DP. Nonetheless, I get the feeling that PT and Roland's V technology are not really the same thing. PT piano sounds have that metallic/sonic quality that distracts me but I don't hear that in V-Grand demo videos.

It is frustrating that the technology is there to build a better DP but the price is prohibitive. I'd love to get my hand on something like a V-Piano (we don't have space or budget for V-Grand) with AG action but that'd probably sell for more than an average decent grand piano.

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Originally Posted by littlebirdblue
PT piano sounds have that metallic/sonic quality that distracts me but I don't hear that in V-Grand demo videos.

The sound of Pianoteq in demos greatly depends on its version. There was an update (5.1.0) in october that IMHO greatly improved the sound.
I personally had issues with pre-5.1.0 Pinoteq sound that prevented me from enjoying it, but now I find playing some of the presets very enjoyable (though perhaps not as realistic as some sampled pianos).

Originally Posted by TonyB
I ran Pianoteq on my ultrabook (i7based and quite fast) with my Casio PX-5S. It worked well, but to me comparing that to the V-Grand is sort of like comparing a real flight simulator to the flight simulator software running on a PC.

Casio has inferior action compared to the action in V-Piano (as it should - it's on a completely different price level), IMHO it's natural that the comparison ended with V-Piano being vastly better.
I experienced an incredible improvement in playing experience and realism when I upgraded from Yamaha GH action (similar level to Casio) to Kawai GF, even though the computer sound stayed unchanged.
I don't argue that V-piano experience couldn't be better than VSTs, I haven't tried V-piano, but comparison against Casio action doesn't tell much - in my experience the action (and latency) are extremely important factors in the whole experience.

Last edited by PtJaa; 12/23/14 08:57 AM. Reason: restyled for better clarity

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Originally Posted by littlebirdblue
It is frustrating that the technology is there to build a better DP but the price is prohibitive. I'd love to get my hand on something like a V-Piano (we don't have space or budget for V-Grand) with AG action but that'd probably sell for more than an average decent grand piano.


What bothers me about the AG is that it has the maintenance negatives that comes along with a wooden piano mechanism.

Isn't the kawai GF action getting pretty close to realistic? Maybe a few tweaks might help.

IMHO the biggest "enablers" of digital piano technology is maintenance and to a lesser degree portability.

Hopefully the next generation of high end digital pianos goes more towards the casio px5s software wise with a customization community. And of course have access to multiple downloadable community tweaked pianos.

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Originally Posted by bnolsen
IMHO the biggest "enablers" of digital piano technology is maintenance and to a lesser degree portability.

And silent playing to not bother family/neighbors at all hours. And cost.

Actually, I think maintenance is the least important of the the factors. Even lots of people who own and maintain acoustics still have a digital for portability or silent practice.

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Well recorded live jazzy V-P Grand, for those who like that sort of thing ... and those who don't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyTf8UXNQM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp66UOxha-s

Come on Santa Roland! Pleeeeeeze make a V-Piano Upright in an LX-15e style case with beefier amplification and better speakers damn it!

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Originally Posted by bnolsen


What bothers me about the AG is that it has the maintenance negatives that comes along with a wooden piano mechanism.


The most frequent maintenance issues on an acoustic grand piano are tuning and voicing. Neither of them are needed on the AG. I (still) don't own one of these but it's my guess that they don't need more maintenance than a regular DP (close to cero at least on the first years). I also think that the AG action must be more robust than most of the digital ones (Please, actual owners tell me this is true or not :-) )

Originally Posted by anotherscott

Actually, I think maintenance is the least important of the the factors. Even lots of people who own and maintain acoustics still have a digital for portability or silent practice.


+1 I'd add that many people use digital pianos for both uses. They're also a wonderful practice tool. I use a lot the built-in recorder for instant reproduction of what I'm playing and, therefore, continue trying to improve my playing.

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