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Some people here bought sight unseen and are quite happy with their purchase. It's certainly not ideal, but can sometimes be the best choice in certain situations.

PFH, given the fact that your local dealer agrees (make him write it on the purchase contract) to switch piano if you don't like it, I think it's quite reasonable, especially as you already know which kind of piano sound you want and given he also carries Kawais. I agree with you Kawais are close to Ritmullers on the "dark to bright" scale, probably just next to them.

Finally, on the list master88er gave you for regulation, I would add to fix obvious defects that can sometimes happen during transport and also I would ask for regulation of the dampers and sostenuto pedal. I personally think this (and several other things) should be checked after a long distance move.

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There are some pianos you can definitely buy "sigh unseen" - we sell quite a few like that these days.

Trusting a brand is one thing but trusting the dealer you're buying from is even more important.

What works well in one case may not necessarily work well in another.

Dealers that are 'owner operated' generally do better in this regard being able to make decisions quicker plus having often more at stake.
[no names mentioned to protect the innocent.. wink ]

Since we have long distances in Canada & doing it all the time, I personally need to be on top of things constantly.
Sometimes can be a challenge: some may not enjoy it same way I personally do. [Gerald, Kurt: are you reading here... wink ]

Find a make/model you like, can afford to pay for and a dealer you can trust - a good beginning!

Alternatively: secure the services of the finest tech you can find in your area and proceed to "make your deal"

Norbert smile

Last edited by Norbert; 11/22/14 06:35 PM.

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Given the circumstances, it seems somewhat reasonable. Assuming it's not really an option to buy from an out-of-town dealer, if the pianos currently on the floor are not to his liking AND they're more expensive. Then if gets the Ritmuller and doesn't like it, at least he didn't pay as much for it. But there's a decent chance he'll be happy with it. WTH, go for it!

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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
You all seem to have this figured out. Except you don't factor in the things I wrote, or provide alternatives.

Yes, I could go to Hamburg or similar, but it's not like it's just around the corner. Also, I would be on my own with regards to warranty, local support etc.



I wasn't saying you should buy it from Hamburg, just that you would have at least played the model you are about to buy and confirmed that you like it before you commit to buying one. I understand that you are in a tricky situation.

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Originally Posted by master88er

Hi pinkfloydhomer:

As you may know, my company has been selling these pianos (Ritmmüller GH and UH series pianos) since their inception, so I do have, perhaps, the most experience with these pianos that you will find on this forum. Additionally, as a paid consultant to Pearl River, and having a close personal relationship to Lothar Thomma, I have an intimate knowledge of these pianos.


I am glad to benefit from your knowledge and experience. Of course, you might not me totally impartial, but that doesn't seem important in this case.

Originally Posted by master88er

First, I would like to echo some of the posts of others in this thread: While I firmly believe in these pianos, if you haven't played one but are simply making your selection based on recordings, I would not recommend you buying ANY piano without first playing the brand and model/size you are considering. This holds true for ANY brand. Once you have tried one, and find it to your liking, I have no issue with one being ordered in the color and size you prefer - as with any other brand such as Kawai or Yamaha, as these pianos are extremely consistent in tone and performance.


Duly noted.

Originally Posted by master88er

This consistency leads me to recommend the following Dealer prep on these pianos, as this is our nearly unanimous procedure on every Ritmüller grand we unbox:

  • Remove stack and ease key bushings: We have noticed that, in San Francisco, once the piano sits for a few days the bushings can be a little tight. This doesn't take long to do.
  • Check regulation, and adjust hammer travel and let-off. While most of the Rits we uncrate do meet this standard, it is always prudent to check.
  • The pianos arrive VERY mellow, and this is on purpose. It is much easier to add a bit of brilliance than to voice down hammers. We routinely iron the hammers as part of prep, to about 10% harder than they arrive. Remember that pianos get brighter with age and playing, so I wouldn't going any more than 10% at the start. Your technician can always do a bit more when the piano is in the home.
  • Two to Three tunings - We ALWAYS bring these pianos to A442 (European standard pitch) and do a second tuning a few days later. They are very stable and shouldn't need another tuning until 60-90 days after delivery to your home.



Thanks for the list. I will keep your suggestions in mind. I don't mind the piano being very mellow, I like that. Also, my living room have a lot of hard surfaces and it will brighten over time. I guess what I will negotiate with my dealer is that since I can't listen to the piano before it is in my home, they will have to voice it to my satisfaction if necessary.

Originally Posted by master88er

While the GH148 is a very musical instrument, if your budget allows I would certainly recommend the GH160 & GH170 as a preference. In fact, the GH170 is the best selling model of any piano of any brand the we carry.


I was actually going for the GH160R at first, but my dealer just spoke to Pearl River, and they can only have a GH148R or a R9 ready for the next shipment in December to my dealer. I have asked my dealer how long it would take before they can have GH160R or GH170R ready.

I might start with the GH148R now and then upgrade to GH160R or GH170R when they have one ready. Also, the prices my dealer has quoted for GH160R and especially GH170R are rather steep, compared especially to US prices but also the few european prices I have been able to find.

Originally Posted by master88er

IF your dealer also has access to the Kayserburg GH160 or GH170, and the price is within your budget, I would recommend you consider these as the prep work would be less important, since they receive more fine voicing and regulation at the factory level.


My dealer doesn't carry Ritmüller or Kayserburg normally, but they have a business relationship with Pearl River and have sold some of their cheaper pianos. I guess my dealer can just as well order a Kayserburg, but I am afraid the price would be even more steep compared to international prices.

Originally Posted by master88er

If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me. I hope the above was helpful.


It was, thank you smile


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Many post on this board note that the piano sounds fine at the dealers, but too loud when they get it in a home environment. This will be especially true for a larger grand piano. I would definitely get an in-home voicing included in the price of a new piano. Preferably after you played it in for a month or two.


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People forget that all brands perform a little different, also later at home.

Master88 was giving a great list of what makes most sense in prepping Rits and I found this comment particularly useful:

Quote
The pianos arrive VERY mellow, and this is on purpose. It is much easier to add a bit of brilliance than to voice down hammers. We routinely iron the hammers as part of prep, to about 10% harder than they arrive. Remember that pianos get brighter with age and playing, so I wouldn't going any more than 10% at the start. Your technician can always do a bit more when the piano is in the home.


Pretty well sums it up.

Norbert smile


Last edited by Norbert; 11/23/14 04:21 PM.

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I'm getting my tech to go over my new GH 160r on Tuesday morning, so if you'd like I'll post what he ends up doing it.


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Originally Posted by Anne H
I'm getting my tech to go over my new GH 160r on Tuesday morning, so if you'd like I'll post what he ends up doing it.


Thanks, that would be nice.


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Hi - not sure if this is what you're looking for - this only relates to regulation, not necessarily in relation to setting up a new piano. Some of this could be done prior to delivery, and some may not be relevant to new pianos.

It was posted on PianoWorld a couple of years ago.

http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1884489/Re:%20Kawai%20Grand%20Regulation%20Man.html

You could probably also find "Voicing the RX Series Grand Piano" - document on Google.


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Thanks. I know of the Kawai regulation manual and other sources of regulation procedures.

In this case, I am more interested in knowing what I should demand/negotiate from my dealer when ordering a new grand piano, especially one that I am buying sight unseen.


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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
In this case, I am more interested in knowing what I should demand/negotiate from my dealer when ordering a new grand piano, especially one that I am buying sight unseen.

What do you already have on your list?


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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
Thanks. I know of the Kawai regulation manual and other sources of regulation procedures.

In this case, I am more interested in knowing what I should demand/negotiate from my dealer when ordering a new grand piano, especially one that I am buying sight unseen.


You get nothing for nothing. The sales business is a complex balancing act of supply & demand as well as (not in your case directly) whether they've got floor stock which they need to move.

You've said that "If I don't like it" ... the dealer will swap for another model or brand. Which is a significant potential expense for the dealer (freight, re-setting your piano for someone else and setting up another piano for you. Plus, the "don't like it" piano won't be a "NEW" piano any more, so he likely will make a loss re-selling it as a USED piano - and they'd then have to factor in the cost of keeping floor stock which they may not want.

You will be the one paying for that - so under those circumstances, I wouldn't expect much in the way of mark-down, or included services.


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Originally Posted by Withindale
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer
In this case, I am more interested in knowing what I should demand/negotiate from my dealer when ordering a new grand piano, especially one that I am buying sight unseen.

What do you already have on your list?


Only the stuff from this thread. As I wrote, I've never owned or bought a new (or used) grand piano before.

I don't know what to expect or demand/negotiate. I didn't even know that the piano included a bench. I guess I come off as rather inexperienced to the dealer. Which I am. And I guess if I don't know what to ask for, I won't necessarily get it automatically.

One of the more tangible things: The price I am being offered is rather steep, IMO. He wants more for a Ritmüller GH170R than I've been able to negotiate for Kawai GE-30. In

http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall14/228.html
http://www.pianobuyer.com/fall14/238.html

there is quite a bit of difference in SMP between the two: GH170R at $15,590, GE-30 at $22,190.

I don't know how uniform Kawai or Ritmüller prices dealers pay across the world. But he is offering GE-30 for $15,536, 70% of SMP.

Can I expect to be able to get the GH170R for 70% of SMP also? That is $10,913. His offer is $16,713. A _HUGE_ difference.

If course, price isn't everything. But it is part of the whole. If he has a very high price and on top of that I negotiate little to no dealer prep, I would feel kinda ripped off.

I guess it's all supply and demand. But this doesn't feel like a very competitive market where a lot of sellers want my money and are willing to fight for it with sharp prices and good service. It feels like no one wants to sell me a GH170R at a "fair" price with great service. Even Pearl River do not want to sell a GH170R at the moment, they have none ready at the factory to sell to my dealer.


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Originally Posted by backto_study_piano

You get nothing for nothing. The sales business is a complex balancing act of supply & demand as well as (not in your case directly) whether they've got floor stock which they need to move.

You've said that "If I don't like it" ... the dealer will swap for another model or brand. Which is a significant potential expense for the dealer (freight, re-setting your piano for someone else and setting up another piano for you. Plus, the "don't like it" piano won't be a "NEW" piano any more, so he likely will make a loss re-selling it as a USED piano - and they'd then have to factor in the cost of keeping floor stock which they may not want.

You will be the one paying for that - so under those circumstances, I wouldn't expect much in the way of mark-down, or included services.


This deal is not for me exclusively. It's for everybody buying at this dealer. He says it's their business model: They only want to sell quality pianos that will roughly keep their value for the first five years. Of course, he can't sell it as new, so I guess what he means is that, all things considered, he will still make enough money on each piano on average to make his business profitable. That is a function of the price of the new piano, the price if it is re-sold, the cost of service, the pre-sale guidance given to lower the probability of people opting to upgrade within these five years and so on.

Of course you are right whatever the cost is of this business model, the consumer pays. But I can't see it being in his interest to give poor service or dealer prep.

It _is_ a nice opportunity to be able to upgrade freely within five years. Why shouldn't I? I could be playing a very nice piano for five years for "free" and save up money for a nice upgrade in the meantime.


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I guess it's all supply and demand. But this doesn't feel like a very competitive market where a lot of sellers want my money and are willing to fight for it with sharp prices and good service. It feels like no one wants to sell me a GH170R at a "fair" price with great service. Even Pearl River do not want to sell a GH170R at the moment, they have none ready at the factory to sell to my dealer.


The market for many pianos today is influenced by the tremendous demand for pianos right now in China.

While about 380,000 new pianos are being sold there annually, the whole of North America is selling only around 20,000..

There are developing short passes developing for some, Ritmuller being one of them. Presently we have two 170 grands presold but need waiting getting them.

Guess the Chinese market for which the pianos had originally been designed, is gobbling up more than its fair share...

Norbert frown

Last edited by Norbert; 11/24/14 05:23 PM.

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Hi pinkfloydhomer,

I don't know how helpful the pricing information in Piano Buyer is if you are shopping outside of the US. In Denmark in particular you have to factor in the increased cost of doing business (higher taxes and wages etc.) and the lack of competition from other dealers. The only way to know if you are getting a good deal or not is to compare with other pianos offered at other dealers locally.

In my experience in Norway, when buying a piano priced around 50-60.000 NOK, the 'standard' deal includes a pre-sales tuning, a bench, delivery and one free tuning after the purchase within a year. I recently bought a Shigeru Kawai grand for about 5-6 times that price, and this included quite a bit of pre-sales prep, delivery, bench, several service visits within the first 18 months, and a damp chaser. I think that the piano market in Denmark probably has more in common with the piano market in Norway than that in the US. I don't think it would be reasonable to expect to get a Ritmüller at a comparable price to what they sell for in the US, plus loads of prep and service visits included. For what it's worth, the pre-negotiaton sticker price in Oslo for a Ritmüller 148 is 85.000 NOK.

I totally understand your aprehension, though. Pricing in the piano market is so confusing that it's sometimes difficult to know if you're getting a good deal or not. And if you don't ask, you won't get anything thrown in for free! smile But the bottom line is, if you can afford it, and there isn't something else available across town for a much lower price, then you're not being ripped off. My opinion is that it's not unreasonable to have to pay a bit more for decent prep work, and this approach will get you a better instrument than if you just try to hammer out the lowest possible price.

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Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer

It _is_ a nice opportunity to be able to upgrade freely within five years. Why shouldn't I? I could be playing a very nice piano for five years for "free" and save up money for a nice upgrade in the meantime.


Be careful with your assumptions on this regard. Although you may be indeed getting credit for 100% of the pre-sales-tax money you paid for the original piano, more than likely it would be towards the purchase of a "replacement" piano at its full MSRP/retail price.

The difference between the replacement-piano's MSRP and its discounted-SMP would be like "rent" you paid for the original-piano during the associated time-frame.

This could still be a good benefit since you have the "peace of mind" of having the option to upgrade without the hazzle of having to place your piano in the market, but it is certainly not "playing for five years "for free"".


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Originally Posted by pogmoger
Hi pinkfloydhomer,

I don't know how helpful the pricing information in Piano Buyer is if you are shopping outside of the US. In Denmark in particular you have to factor in the increased cost of doing business (higher taxes and wages etc.) and the lack of competition from other dealers. The only way to know if you are getting a good deal or not is to compare with other pianos offered at other dealers locally.


True. But please note that I am not directly comparing the prices. Rather, I am comparing the price _differences_ between certain specific pianos. Both absolutely and relatively, and both street prices and SMPs and otherwise. I am trying to get the big picture, get a feel for the prices.

I do not expect a US price in Denmark. I just don't understand why a Ritmüller would cost more in Denmark than a Kawai that is much more expensive in the US. Also, the few European prices I can find on the Ritmüllers suggest a more reasonable relationship between European prices of these two pianos.

Originally Posted by pogmoger

I totally understand your aprehension, though. Pricing in the piano market is so confusing that it's sometimes difficult to know if you're getting a good deal or not. And if you don't ask, you won't get anything thrown in for free! smile But the bottom line is, if you can afford it, and there isn't something else available across town for a much lower price, then you're not being ripped off. My opinion is that it's not unreasonable to have to pay a bit more for decent prep work, and this approach will get you a better instrument than if you just try to hammer out the lowest possible price.


True. I guess that's what I am looking for. The whole package, piano, good prep, good service, at a fair price.

Maybe if I "let" the dealer sell me the piano at his price, he will be more generous with prep and service smile Who knows...

I am not interested in getting the piano as cheap as possible and then be on my own. But I don't want to pay far too much either, especially as I don't know up front if his prep work and service will be worth the high price.


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Originally Posted by MiguelAngel07
Originally Posted by pinkfloydhomer

It _is_ a nice opportunity to be able to upgrade freely within five years. Why shouldn't I? I could be playing a very nice piano for five years for "free" and save up money for a nice upgrade in the meantime.


Be careful with your assumptions on this regard. Although you may be indeed getting credit for 100% of the pre-sales-tax money you paid for the original piano, more than likely it would be towards the purchase of a "replacement" piano at its full MSRP/retail price.

The difference between the replacement-piano's MSRP and its discounted-SMP would be like "rent" you paid for the original-piano during the associated time-frame.

This could still be a good benefit since you have the "peace of mind" of having the option to upgrade without the hazzle of having to place your piano in the market, but it is certainly not "playing for five years "for free"".



At least I should make sure what the terms are.

But he already acknowledged that I could upgrade for free from, say, the Ritmüller GH148R to the Kawai GE-30 not at MSRP but at the competitive price he agreed to match.

This is because he has a price guarantee where he matches any price with delivery included, at least in the EU. I showed him a lower German price on the GE-30 from a company that sells to Denmark as well. He matched that price as per his price guarantee.

So he has both price guarantee and a five year free upgrade policy. The upgrade policy is on the condition that his company exclusively maintains and tunes the piano in these five years.

The company is the largest piano dealer in Denmark, even in the entire Scandinavia I think. I presume they have good techs and so on.


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