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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I cringe whenever I hear or read the word "pianist" in reference to a digital thingie.


There was an somewhat informal study done at a well known high end music store here in Canada (2008) in regards to DP's and real pianos. An extremely high end audio speaker system (with horns) was used to play (sampled) digital piano music in a closed off out of view area, alongside with a mid sized Steinway grand. Over a 3 month period, the "guesses" the hundreds of people took over which was the DP and which wasn't indicated an even split....fact is that people, even educated musicians, can't tell the difference.

Now if you want to claim that small nuances can be achieved with the accoustic piano over the DP, I wouldn't argue with you....but I would still be inclined to think few, if any people, could reliably pick up on it. The subtle differences in talent between high end pianists is greater than the sum of the DP/pianos differences these days.



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Originally Posted by Emmery
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
I cringe whenever I hear or read the word "pianist" in reference to a digital thingie.


There was an somewhat informal study done at a well known high end music store here in Canada (2008) in regards to DP's and real pianos. An extremely high end audio speaker system (with horns) was used to play (sampled) digital piano music in a closed off out of view area, alongside with a mid sized Steinway grand. Over a 3 month period, the "guesses" the hundreds of people took over which was the DP and which wasn't indicated an even split....fact is that people, even educated musicians, can't tell the difference.

Now if you want to claim that small nuances can be achieved with the accoustic piano over the DP, I wouldn't argue with you....but I would still be inclined to think few, if any people, could reliably pick up on it. The subtle differences in talent between high end pianists is greater than the sum of the DP/pianos differences these days.


One thing that might have a bearing on that piano store comparison is the difference in hearing acuity. DPs and acoustics can be very close in everything except the upper range. In the DPs I've heard, I can pick up the treble waveform steps quite handily. It's a "sugary" unnatural sound.


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One needs to define the words "pianist" and a "player of thingies."

grin


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On one of the electronic repair forums, there was a thread on how best to lift digital piano consoles onto the repair bench without injury or damage.

Try that with a Steinway!


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Originally Posted by bkw58
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by JohnSprung

The proliferation of digital keyboard instruments means that a lot of people now are accustomed to mathematically precise tunings.


I have yet to find a digital keyboard that is in tune. Anybody else?


My experience too, Mark, though it's been a few years since I've checked any. (How are these tunings programed?)


I probably should clarify. The only thing I checked on DPs were the temperament octaves. If the aim of the "tuning programmer" was UT, then I suppose it could be argued that at least the temperament was "in-tune." Invariably these were some fashion of UT or maybe even RW. I don't know. It wasn't high on my list of things to remember. But the DPs definitely were not ET. Thus my question: How are these (DP) tunings programmed?

Last edited by bkw58; 05/16/14 11:23 AM. Reason: clarity

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Originally Posted by bkw58


But the DPs definitely were not ET. Thus my question: How are these (DP) tunings programmed?


Supposedly they are sampled, from a properly tuned acoustic.


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My posting of the 4 recordings were in reference to Mark's question above about digital pianos being in tune.

Those 4 recordings were made over the last few years on a digital piano...here is another one from the same DP.

Same question....are they in tune?

Clair de Lune https://app.box.com/shared/static/7kp3gcxosx.mp3


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Tuning is in the ear of the beholder after a point. "Equal" temperament simply means we spread the errors equally. If we use "stretch" tuning, it simply means we can't even agree on perfect octaves!

Maybe we should go back to the music and the keys used. Ever wonder why the Romantic era composers write in remote keys? Probably has something to do with the color of the keys in imperfectly tuned temperaments. Schubert loves to write in c-flat.


Also notice writing with a lot of 10th's and 12th's, could be to exploit the difference between the tempered pitch and the "true" harmonics which are different and can give quite a howl.


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Some interesting tunings from the 1930/40 era from across the pond. Fascinating website btw...could have spent countless hours looking through it. I found these links by typing "piano" in their search box. The 12 foot CHALLEN piano...not the greatest sound. I wonder where that piano is now? Grotrian Steinweg seems to have been the piano of choice in most of the vids.

Interesting that a lot of the vids in the "salon room", the lid was closed.

It is sometimes hard to tell how well a piano was tuned from these old recordings etc, due to the wow and flutter that seems to be prevalent in all recordings from that era, and the technology of that time period is so sub-standard. That being said, I wonder if the pro-tuners can tell if the pianos in these vids for example, are tuned any better than today. What about temperament?


http://www.britishpathe.com/video/pianos-through-the-ages/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/billy-mayerl-and-his-claviers/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/piano-pieces-peggy-desmond/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/billy-mayerl/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/norman-henderson/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/eight-piano-rhapsody/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/two-pianos-in-harmony-rene-pougnet-and-clive-richa/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/8-year-old-boy-music-prodigy/query/piano

(Clip of Van Cliburn) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/festival-of-tchaikowsky-music/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/double-playing/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/tania/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/peggy-desmond/query/piano

(could not stop laughing at this one..Ahemm, let your fingers do the talking..ahemmm) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/jean-b-toner/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/mark-hambourg-2/query/piano (tuning/stabiliy???)

(the dogs have it down, I was in pain laughing so hard) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/just-a-singer/query/piano

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/max-schumann-1/query/piano

(Ampico artist Edgar Fairchild on the left) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/fairchild-and-lindholm/query/piano

(Had no idea Mantovani was such an accomplished violinist) http://www.britishpathe.com/video/mantovani/query/piano





Last edited by Grandpianoman; 05/18/14 07:14 PM.
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Originally Posted by bkw58
Originally Posted by bkw58
Originally Posted by Mark Cerisano, RPT
Originally Posted by JohnSprung

The proliferation of digital keyboard instruments means that a lot of people now are accustomed to mathematically precise tunings.


I have yet to find a digital keyboard that is in tune. Anybody else?


My experience too, Mark, though it's been a few years since I've checked any. (How are these tunings programed?)


I probably should clarify. The only thing I checked on DPs were the temperament octaves. If the aim of the "tuning programmer" was UT, then I suppose it could be argued that at least the temperament was "in-tune." Invariably these were some fashion of UT or maybe even RW. I don't know. It wasn't high on my list of things to remember. But the DPs definitely were not ET. Thus my question: How are these (DP) tunings programmed?


usually the same sample is used for 4 consecutive notes.

It probably does not help with the tuning



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Beemer, the answer is not no, but heck no! Tuners back in the day were great. They did not rely on a machine.They had hearing that was developed, because they had to USE only their ears. It was all old school. A fork and their well trained ear. To this day, concert artists want THOSE kind of tuners!


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Originally Posted by gynnis
Ever wonder why the Romantic era composers write in remote keys? Probably has something to do with the color of the keys in imperfectly tuned temperaments. Schubert loves to write in c-flat.


That, and keys with lots of flats or sharps are easier to play in. The black keys stick up with room around them, so they're easier to get a finger onto from a wider range of angles. C may be the "easy" key for notation, but for actual playing, it's the hard key.



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