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My teacher is starting some much needed ear training with me and I'm very excited to jump in. I'm working on recognizing different intervals and trying to sing some intervals. This is all in the context of trying to improve my very early stage jazz improvisation as well as just a good idea for general musicianship.

Here's the issue...I'm really bad at it and have never been able to sing or carry a tune at all. My practicing sounds like I'm in pain and I'm pretty certain my wife would suggest it is also painful to listen to.

I've tried humming, singing the note names, using vowel sounds...It's all pretty bad. The good news is I've got about a 1.5 octave range where I can sort of match the note eventually, but getting there is not pretty.

Does anyone have any suggestions that might help? I've only been at it a few days so I'm hoping things will fall into place, but this is not coming naturally to me in any way. Any help would be appreciated.

I'm wondering if a few singing lessons might help but I have no idea what that entails.

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I don't know about others' intonations, but mine just sort of improved with time with this (concurrently with my ear's ability to accurately hear and estimate the pitches).

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Originally Posted by Bobpickle

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In my own experience, improving one's aural skills takes a long time, and carefully thought-out development.

One place to start is learning to match pitch, and learning to move your voice (pitch) around deliberately. And the way to learn about matching pitch starts at a very basic level with you singing (or humming or growling) a note, any note, and your voice teacher then matching your pitch, preferably vocally at first rather than with the piano. Actually, even before that might come exercises to get you comfortable making pitched sound, and moving your pitch around. Being asked to learn to identify random intervals to start with (or even a small set of carefully chosen intervals) may not be the right place for your teacher to start with you. Your piano teacher may not know how to teach you these things (or s/he may): you may want an instructor who understands this kind of teaching (I'm not sure even all voice teachers will make a specialty of being able to teach these foundational skills -- perhaps Morodiene will chime in with whether this is a typical area of knowledge for voice teachers.)

Once you get to intervals, there are creative ways to get your ear used to hearing things -- for example, a major second vs. an octave: can you hear that they are different? Hearing that intervals are different may be a more basic skill than learning to attach names to the intervals, but people seem to rarely talk about this.

You will probably get lots of advice to learn to identify intervals with songs that start with that interval. That seems to help lots of people, at least judging by the number of times I see it mentioned. I find for myself it is mostly useless, for a variety of reasons that would take a skilled teacher to be able to work with me and find the way to value the aural skills I do have, and to see clearly the real causes and solutions for the aural gaps I have. So don't give up if songs-by-interval doesn't seem to work (although I will be very happy for you if it does work for you).

You will also probably also get lots of links to computerized ear-training sites. Again, lots of people seem to find these useful. I hate them. My ear quickly gets fatigued with the computer-generated tones. And the sites actually don't provide any training at all. They provide tests. Some people seem to improve by continual guessing at the tests, and then find that they're getting it right more often. Me, I just feel like I'm guessing almost randomly and not learning anything at all.

Most of all though, I find that improving my aural skills takes time, patience, and experimentation. One of the biggest breakthroughs for me in this area was actually learning to value the ways in which I am musical, even if I can't tick the boxes of isolated skills that are conventionally called "ear training."


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I should add: there might also be ways to improve various aural skills without going through the path of vocally producing them at all. Someone else will have to speak about that. For me, voice is intimately linked to some of the ways in which I approach various kinds of aural skills, so I haven't spent time reflecting on how I might do it without using my voice at all.


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PianoStudent88 covers most of the high points.

I would suggest some singing lessons. They were _very_ useful to me. Your teacher will figure out what you can do, what you can't, and help you work on the gaps you have.

"Hearing your own voice" is a learned skill; "controlling your own voice" is another one. You'll learn faster with help.

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One thing I could never get my head around, regarding this, was the requirement / significance for the singing / vocalising of this, for a pianist.

I took piano exams (the normal grades) from the beginning of the 80s 'til around 88-ish.

And as the exams progressed, I seem to recall having to sing (or whistling, I believe, was option - for boys, I suspect, who's voice was breaking) interval gaps.

Whilst I get that a competent musician should be able to recognise and understand - perhaps be able to communicate - intervals, I never understood why it was necessary to have to vocalise them (ie sing them) - why wasn't / isn't it good enough to simply describe them?

What am I not getting?

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Current RCM exam standards allow for singing or identify. I always choose the identify option.

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Originally Posted by Eight Octaves
Current RCM exam standards allow for singing or identify. I always choose the identify option.

I don't know whether it's changed, and bearing in mind it's certainly been a big gap since I was taking exams, but my then teacher told me my options were sing the interval, or I felt my ability to sing the note wasn't good, to whistle, as that was an accepted alternative.

Has that changed, or implemented differently with different exam bodies?

(also worth pointing out, this was piano exams set and taken in the UK - and although I can't put my finger on all of my stuff - I suspect I have certificates in the loft, somewhere, I have found the music booklets for the music for my first few grades, grade 1 in 82, 2 in 83, 3 in 84 - not sure where the rest are yet - but these are all "The Associated Board of The Royal Schools of Music"; and I've just seen some of the writing from my teacher in them, and it's rather disturbing how much no longer makes sense and / or I realise the types of things I understood then, and don't really get now - I suppose even more motivation to return to lessons at some point)

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Interesting answers. Thanks for your thoughtful replies. Sounds like I've got some work to do.

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The ABRSM requirements now require you to sight sing. They give you a score and play the starting note. From there you must sing the intervals. I would much prefer recognising intervals than singing them, but it just takes practice. In addition, the Aural exam requires singing a melody that is played twice. So, in order to sit exams for piano, I find I am learning how to sing again as well! There are some excellent iPad apps for learning how to do this, both from the ABRSM and from Aural Book.

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Originally Posted by SwissMS
The ABRSM requirements now require you to sight sing. They give you a score and play the starting note. From there you must sing the intervals. I would much prefer recognising intervals than singing them, but it just takes practice. In addition, the Aural exam requires singing a melody that is played twice. So, in order to sit exams for piano, I find I am learning how to sing again as well! There are some excellent iPad apps for learning how to do this, both from the ABRSM and from Aural Book.


Still, there must be something I'm not getting. Whilst I can understand the need to be able to regonise intervals, as part of musical profeciency, why the vocal aspect, for somebody playing the piano?

What if you're entirely uninterested in having to be able to sing an interval, or perhaps have some other phsyical, non-negotiable reason as to what that's either quite difficult or not possible?

I think what I'm really getting at, is I'm entirely bemused why it's a required skill to be able to sing it? Recognise it, I get, even describe it, but sing it? For a pianist? Why?

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Originally Posted by dcb
My teacher is starting some much needed ear training with me and I'm very excited to jump in. I'm working on recognizing different intervals and trying to sing some intervals.


Make sure your intervals are done in the context of songs/melodies that revolve around a tonal center. Practicing random intervals without context won't do you any good.

Quote

Here's the issue...I'm really bad at it and have never been able to sing or carry a tune at all.


Practice slow. A good singing coach can help.

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Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by SwissMS
The ABRSM requirements now require you to sight sing. They give you a score and play the starting note. From there you must sing the intervals. I would much prefer recognising intervals than singing them, but it just takes practice. In addition, the Aural exam requires singing a melody that is played twice. So, in order to sit exams for piano, I find I am learning how to sing again as well! There are some excellent iPad apps for learning how to do this, both from the ABRSM and from Aural Book.


Still, there must be something I'm not getting. Whilst I can understand the need to be able to regonise intervals, as part of musical profeciency, why the vocal aspect, for somebody playing the piano?

What if you're entirely uninterested in having to be able to sing an interval, or perhaps have some other phsyical, non-negotiable reason as to what that's either quite difficult or not possible?

I think what I'm really getting at, is I'm entirely bemused why it's a required skill to be able to sing it? Recognise it, I get, even describe it, but sing it? For a pianist? Why?



A great question.

One of the main reasons is that singing aloud offers a way for a teacher to "verify" what the student is hearing in his or her head. Once the argument has been successfully made that a strong "mental ear" is important for musical proficiency, then it's a small leap to say, "now how can we assess how you're doing?"

It's true that one way to "prove" that you're hearing intervals correctly in your head is through dictation ("you tell me what I just played"). And I'd wager that there are *some* students that could improve their "mental ear" entirely by playing and listening. However, I think you could argue, especially if we're talking about a classroom situation, that singing can be a big help, to those who need it. Singing offers yet another way to engage things like intervals, another perspective that the student can mix into their other perceptions of intervals, and it could make a big difference.

You could say it helps to identify people with problems. If someone can create music but they can't match a pitch with their voice in even a crude way, it's a sign of a disconnect.

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Originally Posted by JamesPlaysPiano
Originally Posted by Lester Burnham
Originally Posted by SwissMS
The ABRSM requirements now require you to sight sing. They give you a score and play the starting note. From there you must sing the intervals. I would much prefer recognising intervals than singing them, but it just takes practice. In addition, the Aural exam requires singing a melody that is played twice. So, in order to sit exams for piano, I find I am learning how to sing again as well! There are some excellent iPad apps for learning how to do this, both from the ABRSM and from Aural Book.


Still, there must be something I'm not getting. Whilst I can understand the need to be able to regonise intervals, as part of musical profeciency, why the vocal aspect, for somebody playing the piano?

What if you're entirely uninterested in having to be able to sing an interval, or perhaps have some other phsyical, non-negotiable reason as to what that's either quite difficult or not possible?

I think what I'm really getting at, is I'm entirely bemused why it's a required skill to be able to sing it? Recognise it, I get, even describe it, but sing it? For a pianist? Why?



A great question.

One of the main reasons is that singing aloud offers a way for a teacher to "verify" what the student is hearing in his or her head. Once the argument has been successfully made that a strong "mental ear" is important for musical proficiency, then it's a small leap to say, "now how can we assess how you're doing?"

It's true that one way to "prove" that you're hearing intervals correctly in your head is through dictation ("you tell me what I just played"). And I'd wager that there are *some* students that could improve their "mental ear" entirely by playing and listening. However, I think you could argue, especially if we're talking about a classroom situation, that singing can be a big help, to those who need it. Singing offers yet another way to engage things like intervals, another perspective that the student can mix into their other perceptions of intervals, and it could make a big difference.

You could say it helps to identify people with problems. If someone can create music but they can't match a pitch with their voice in even a crude way, it's a sign of a disconnect.

James


I don't have any huge argument or issue with what you wrote - I think I understand some of the point - well from a general musical proficiency standpoint, anyways.

My experience of it - admittedly going back 25-30 years, was purely from taking piano exams. And whilst I can grasp the concept of being sufficiently musically proficient that I could recognise such intervals - and describe / detail them if necessary, I'm not really getting why in the context of a piano examination, I need to be able to vocally demonstrate them.

After all - some people may be explicitly drawn to the piano (or other instruments) because they have physical problems with their voice - and no doubt they'd probably get some kind of exemption.

I'm not meaning to be difficult or argumentative - I accept there's some degree of tradition in this, but all the same, I didn't then, nor do now, understand why it's a requirement to be able to demonstrate the interval vocally, as opposed to recognising it and be able to describe it.

There's probably some principles or some rationale - maybe dogmatic - that I'm not fully understanding. And I could understand it if it were a general music exam, but the exams I sat were all purely piano.

For me, it wasn't purely the, perhaps, slightly embarassing nature of it - it was struggling to see the specific relevance of the vocal display, as opposed to describing the understanding. When my piano teacher told me that after a certain point, for some exams, I'd need to be able to sing (or whistle) a certain interval, at first I thought she was having a joke at my expense. When I asked about it, beyond the notion of being able to understand and recognise such things, she just said it was part and parcel of it - tradition and dogma.

But I don't want that to be perceived as harsh or critical - I understand the comments you make, and the relevance to teaching a class - and perhaps convenience, but I can't help but think however somebody can demonstrate, describe, sing (if that's their choice) or play such, then why does it matter.

I suppose you could say, looking at a piano keyboard after having an interval described, then playing it, perhaps makes it easy - but surely it's the recognition - so the reverse wouldn't be making it too easy - examiner plays an interval, and the candidate isn't allowed to watch the keyboard at the time, and they have to describe the interval - isn't that demonstrating the proficiency?

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It's possible for a musician to hear something (internally) but not be able to sing it. But it's literally impossible to sing something without being able to internally hear it. Because if you can sing what you're hearing you're hearing it. There's no way to sing something without hearing it (internally).

But other than making theory teachers happy and as a way to improve your ear, sight singing is a useful skill where someone says something like "How does that go?" Or how should we phrase that line? That comes up all the time in professional situations. Or you might be looking at a score with another pianist discussing how it should be played. But perhaps there's no piano anywhere near. So singing in that context can save the day. Because you can talk about what you're hearing. And you can demonstrate it as well.

Also when studying counterpoint - which is the study of note against note - melody against melody - (sight)singing is the traditional way counterpoint is taught. As in one musician sings one line and another sings another line. That's how you can know for sure if a line is actually working as it should. The study of harmony requires the same thing.

In the Renaissance counterpoint was also taught as something to be improvised through singing. So that's a pretty high standard of musicianship.

Then in the jazz tradition there's also the general idea that you should be able to sing whatever you can play. That's maybe not discussed all that much now. And jazz for instrumentalists isn't usually taught by vocalising - or by having instrumentalists vocalise. But in the tradition, so to speak, being able to sing what you play shows that you can hear what you're playing.

Which is what it comes down to in the end ... the idea that music (for those making it) should be heard internally as clearly and as fully as possible. Because with that strong mental understanding of what something sounds like it's much easier to play it on an instrument.

I hope this helps ...








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Originally Posted by Mark Polishook
It's possible for a musician to hear something (internally) but not be able to sing it. But it's literally impossible to sing something without being able to internally hear it. Because if you can sing what you're hearing you're hearing it. There's no way to sing something without hearing it (internally).

But other than making theory teachers happy and as a way to improve your ear, sight singing is a useful skill where someone says something like "How does that go?" Or how should we phrase that line? That comes up all the time in professional situations. Or you might be looking at a score with another pianist discussing how it should be played. But perhaps there's no piano anywhere near. So singing in that context can save the day. Because you can talk about what you're hearing. And you can demonstrate it as well.

Also when studying counterpoint - which is the study of note against note - melody against melody - (sight)singing is the traditional way counterpoint is taught. As in one musician sings one line and another sings another line. That's how you can know for sure if a line is actually working as it should. The study of harmony requires the same thing.

In the Renaissance counterpoint was also taught as something to be improvised through singing. So that's a pretty high standard of musicianship.

Then in the jazz tradition there's also the general idea that you should be able to sing whatever you can play. That's maybe not discussed all that much now. And jazz for instrumentalists isn't usually taught by vocalising - or by having instrumentalists vocalise. But in the tradition, so to speak, being able to sing what you play shows that you can hear what you're playing.

Which is what it comes down to in the end ... the idea that music (for those making it) should be heard internally as clearly and as fully as possible. Because with that strong mental understanding of what something sounds like it's much easier to play it on an instrument.

I hope this helps ...


I get all that, and wouldn't dispute it.

And for appreciation / appraisal of general (ie non specific) musical ability, I can see the point.

But surely piano exams are to show proficiency in music within the context of playing the instrument. And whilst demonstrating other abilities may help in other scenarios, surely what really matters, is how it pertains to the ability to play the specific instrument?

I can see for general music exams / qualifications.

But I'll return to this point - somebody may be drawn to playing a particular instrument because they've a) got absolutely no interest whatsoever in any vocal musicality b) may actually have physical issues with their voice, which may have influenced their choice of musical instrument.

I'm not against anything that's been written here, and I do recognise that a musician should be able to hear and recognise intervals and merely auditory interpretation of notes / melodies. And I can see some general benefits.

Problem is, beyond tradition, I can't get why it's necessary to have to be able to display vocal talents, for piano exams - yes, being able to recognise / interpret notes, intervals, melodies et al is perhaps a fundamental requirement, but vocalising them?

Would people who have physical issues with their voice be exempt, or would they not be able to complete exams where this is tested. If they are tested differently, why would that not be an option for others, simple because they'd prefer it, or not confident / that competent vocally?

I'm not trying to derail this, or refute the good answers and information that's been expressed, I guess I'm just trying to understand why the essence isn't more important, than a particular manner of demonstrating ability - specifically where the exams / examination / evaluation is for the piano.

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[quote=Lester
But surely piano exams are to show proficiency in music within the context of playing the instrument. And whilst demonstrating other abilities may help in other scenarios, surely what really matters, is how it pertains to the ability to play the specific instrument?

. [/quote]

The points I described go to the history and reasons for a good ear training. Because the best ears we can have are the ears we want! Other than that, I have nothing to do with the exam system.


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Unless things have changed since I did those exams last century wink , you don't have to sing. You can hum, whistle, croak, squeak.....and you can do so an octave (or more) higher or lower.

I remember one exam when my voice was breaking, and inadvertently, my baritone turned into a falsetto two octaves higher. The examiner didn't bat an eyelid, and gave me full marks.

All they want from you is that you can reproduce a semblance of the tune that was played.


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Originally Posted by bennevis
Unless things have changed since I did those exams last century wink , you don't have to sing. You can hum, whistle, croak, squeak.....and you can do so an octave (or more) higher or lower.

I remember one exam when my voice was breaking, and inadvertently, my baritone turned into a falsetto two octaves higher. The examiner didn't blink an eyelid, and gave me full marks.

All they want from you is that you can reproduce a semblance of the tune that was played.


I get what they want - what I don't get is why.

Why, for the purposes of evaluating somebody's musical proficiency, for the specifics of the piano, is vocal ability required.

Note: that's not the same as saying I don't get why they want you to be able to recognise intervals / notes / melodies.

And to clarify - yes, I get, many of this situations are heavily influenced by tradition and a certain degree of dogma. I took my exams between 1982 and 1988. It's 2014, now.

I understand that they have defined being able to "hear" and understand intervals and melodies and be able to recognise them. And clearly they find that's necessarily to include in evaluation - no problem so far. So why is being able to demonstrate / emulate that vocally required, though?

What about people who have all sorts of physical issues with their voice? Are they exempt? Or simply will fail? And if they are exempted, or tested in an alternate way - why couldn't that be valid for anybody else that would prefer not to do it vocally?

I understand the status quo as is - what I'm trying to still understand, is a) does it still go on as it used to quite some years back when I went through it - and it sounds like you did; b) what's the ongoing rationale, beyond "It's always been done that way"

The ability to vocalise such things doesn't appear to be a requirement of being musically proficient with the instrument, it seems to be merely a convenient manner in which what is required (ie the recognition and the comprehension of intervals), can be evaluated.

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Googling "why does abrsm require singing intervals" led me to this ABRSM document on aural tests which says "singing, both silently in the head and out loud, is one of the best ways to develop the 'musical ear.'" Check out the whole first paragraph at the link -- I'd copy it here but I'm posting from my phone and it's making it awkward to copy it into this post.

This ABRSM document on all aspects of the exams might also have some information on why singing is part of the exam; at any rate it looks like a good resource for anyone planning to take ABRSM exams.


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