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Sounds promising, I have tried rd 800 a little and the cp4 for a short time in store. I think they are both pretty good.
I have no experiance in Kawai, it wasn't until I joined this forum my eyes was opened:)
I have found a dealer ( thank's to kawai James), and I'm waiting for the mp7 to arrive at the store so I can try it out.
Sometimes I'm thinkin' of order it without testing but I'm not sure I dare to do it.

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Do it man! thumb

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Originally Posted by tnsettlemo
The string resonance was a joke on the digitals as compared to the real thing.


Sample-based piano emulation have a really tough time with resonance. At best, they record and trigger off the most simple scenarios.

To get closer, you have to go with modelled pianos which at this time would be either Roland V-Piano or Pianoteq (software piano). Just yesterday, I was playing through a sequence and noticed how resonance "activated" a nearby note under Pianoteq. I immediately switched back to the DP internal sounds to try to reproduce -- no dice and without that, the music suddenly felt very sterile to play.

Modelled pianos have their own shortcomings of course -- but if you don't have a real acoustic in your home, you gotta pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by puff

Do it man! thumb


I did it:)

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Originally Posted by david_ka
Originally Posted by puff

Do it man! thumb


I did it:)

Congratulations, David. I checked out your website and enjoyed your band. :-)

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Originally Posted by jeffreyfranz
Originally Posted by david_ka
Originally Posted by puff

Do it man! thumb


I did it:)

Congratulations, David. I checked out your website and enjoyed your band. :-)


Thank you, we will do some English songs next time. On that album I played guitar and some organ. Now I only play the keyboard.

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Originally Posted by david_ka
Originally Posted by puff

Do it man! thumb


I did it:)


You saved some money man!

(And got a great piano/keyboard.)

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Originally Posted by trigalg693
That said you're picking between 2 good choices. I think the features you absolutely need are the proper sensor tech (not the 6 level ones that came on the FP-4 and MP6 for example)

6 level sensor... can you elaborate on that? I haven't heard that before. How does it work, what's the issue with it?

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Originally Posted by anotherscott

6 level sensor... can you elaborate on that? I haven't heard that before. How does it work, what's the issue with it?


That's a good question.


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Originally Posted by toddy
Originally Posted by anotherscott

6 level sensor... can you elaborate on that? I haven't heard that before. How does it work, what's the issue with it?


That's a good question.

Hopefully the OP will stop by to see it. He/she is still active, but doesn't frequent the digital section much. But maybe someone else knows what s/he is talking about here and can chime in.

BTW, earlier in this thread, you said...

Originally Posted by toddy
I much prefer the Roland PHAIII over Kawai RH.

Having compared those two on an FP-7F vs. MP6, I would agree. But the RD800 has PHA-4 (which I haven't played yet), and MP7 has RH2. And the RH2 on the MP7 feels notably different from the RH on the MP6... I wasn't much of a fan of the action on the MP6 (not bad, but not great... kind of in the same category for me as Yamaha GH and Korg RH3)... but I like the MP7 a lot. It's been too long since I've played a PHAIII, so I won't attempt a specific comparison, but they are both boards I can really enjoy playing.

I was surprised I liked the MP7 action that much better than that of the MP6, since on paper, it would appear to be the same action with the addition of a third sensor, but it feels noticeably better to me, and lighter. I did a search and saw in another thread that JFP mentioned that it has a shallower throw, I wonder if that's what I'm responding to. He preferred the MP6 action, but these things are always so subjective.

And getting back to the main topic of MP7 vs. RD800, here's a video comparing the MP10 to the RD800.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc3RRGNCdE0

I think the MP10 sounds better there... and the MP11 and MP7 have an improved version of the sound that's in the MP10. (At least based on the info at http://www.kawaius.com/main_links/digital/Features/harmonic_imaging2010.html ) - Of course, these things being subjective, I'm sure there are people who will watch that video and prefer the sound of the RD800!

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Well FWIW, I liked the Kawai ES7 when I tried it, well enough. Also the GF keyboard which I tried briefly in a Kawai CA95. But, like you, I did not care particularly for the Kawai MP6 (RH) keyboard. If anything, I prefer Yamaha GH to that, a little.

After a little while, I'm sure you adapt to anything within reason - the thing is (as has been pointed out) to be able to swap from one to another rapidly, and without problems.

Personally, the best keyboard I've played on a DP has been the Roland PHAIII. Most people seem to agree that PHAIV feels better, though it wasn't my first impression. It is, however, an improvement in other ways - higher definition and less noisy mechanically.

PS I can only imagine that the 'six level sensor' referred to but not explained above by trigalg693 is the number of samples across the velocity spectrum. Though having said that, neither Kawai - and certainly not Roland - seem willing to divulge that kind of information re their sound engines. On the other hand, Yamaha and Casio have given this information in their specs....

Last edited by toddy; 10/13/14 12:20 PM.

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Originally Posted by toddy
less noisy mechanically.

It comes up a lot but that seems to me to be such a situation-specific concern. I understand the importance if you're playing with headphones and trying to not bother others, or if you're playing at an unnaturally quiet volume. But the mechanisms of real pianos are pretty noisy... you just don't notice because of how much louder the overall volume of the piano is. If you're playing at normal levels or aren't trying to be quiet for others, it doesn't matter. I get why it matters to some people, but sometimes the feature of a quiet action seems to be thrown around in conversations here as if it is inherently better, when for many (most?) people, I think it doesn't matter at all.

But yeah, I am looking forward to trying the RD-800 one of these days. It will be tough for it to beat the PHAIII for me because, like you, I think that was one of the best actions I'd played on. Even though I'm not the biggest fan of the Roland piano sound, I really enjoyed playing the FP-7 and FP-7F. (Never tried the FP80.)

Originally Posted by toddy
PS I can only imagine that the 'six level sensor' referred to but not explained above by trigalg693 is the number of samples across the velocity spectrum. Though having said that, neither Kawai - and certainly not Roland - seem willing to divulge that kind of information re their sound engines. Yamaha and Casio used to....

I think your "having said that" disclaimer does kind of rule out that interpretation... I'm not aware of there being any common knowledge of the FP4 or MP6 having six velocity layers. And in just checking the DPBSD thread, it looks like the MP6 is probably four, and the FP4 is probably 3. (Six would actually have been an awful lot considering how long ago the FP4 came out, and that it wasn't even a high end model!) At any rate, with Roland's SN modeling, it isn't even a relevant figure on their boards these days.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by toddy
less noisy mechanically.

It comes up a lot but that seems to me to be such a situation-specific concern. I understand the importance if you're playing with headphones and trying to not bother others, or if you're playing at an unnaturally quiet volume. But the mechanisms of real pianos are pretty noisy... you just don't notice because of how much louder the overall volume of the piano is. If you're playing at normal levels or aren't trying to be quiet for others, it doesn't matter. I get why it matters to some people, but sometimes the feature of a quiet action seems to be thrown around in conversations here as if it is inherently better, when for many (most?) people, I think it doesn't matter at all.


For me, I don't care a jot. The hard bottoming out is a nice definite feel. But I have had the downstairs neighbours complaining that I play my bongos too late at night. Whether the newer action stops these thumps transmitting through concrete etc, I do not know.


Originally Posted by anotherscott

Originally Posted by toddy
PS I can only imagine that the 'six level sensor' referred to but not explained above by trigalg693 is the number of samples across the velocity spectrum. Though having said that, neither Kawai - and certainly not Roland - seem willing to divulge that kind of information re their sound engines. Yamaha and Casio used to....

I think your "having said that" disclaimer does kind of rule out that interpretation... I'm not aware of there being any common knowledge of the FP4 or MP6 having six velocity layers. And in just checking the DPBSD thread, it looks like the MP6 is probably four, and the FP4 is probably 3. (Six would actually have been an awful lot considering how long ago the FP4 came out, and that it wasn't even a high end model!) At any rate, with Roland's SN modeling, it isn't even a relevant figure on their boards these days.


Yes, what you say makes perfect sense. But I can't see what else 'six sensor' could possibly be referring to. I am agog.

Last edited by toddy; 10/13/14 01:08 PM.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by toddy
less noisy mechanically.

It comes up a lot but that seems to me to be such a situation-specific concern. I understand the importance if you're playing with headphones and trying to not bother others, or if you're playing at an unnaturally quiet volume. But the mechanisms of real pianos are pretty noisy... you just don't notice because of how much louder the overall volume of the piano is. If you're playing at normal levels or aren't trying to be quiet for others, it doesn't matter. I get why it matters to some people, but sometimes the feature of a quiet action seems to be thrown around in conversations here as if it is inherently better, when for many (most?) people, I think it doesn't matter at all.


I don't think it matters much at all if you're gigging with the board on the road, but if you have it in a quiet environment like a home or a studio it can be more of an issue. Take my nord stage, for example. It's a very loud board in terms of its mechanical noise. but it's not just that it's loud, its that the mechanical noise is very un-piano like, it's more metallic. Both when the key is struck and released, the chassis of the instrument conducts and amplifies the sound. That's on top of the *sampled* mechanical piano noises that nord includes. It really diminishes the quality of the sound unless you're playing at a really high volume.

And I think the frustration for some (certainly for me) is that much of that noise could be eliminated really simply without needing to add too much weight or cost to the board. I mean, a 50 cent strip of felt could eliminate much of the key return noise.

Now don't get me wrong, I *love* my stage 2, and playing it is a joy. But it does have its issues, and that's one of them for me.

and FWIW, the RD800 is vastly superior in that regard. It's a much quieter board, and the mechanical noise that it does make seems much more natural to me, it sounds like a part of the piano sound, not a distraction from it.

(edited for clarity)

Last edited by fizikisto; 10/13/14 01:31 PM.

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To me the RH2 action is not very high quality. There is not much inertia to the key movements. It feels almost synthy with weighting. You don't get much back in terms of dynamism, so I did not feel much of a connection with the music I was playing. Plus a friend of mine has this action on a dp and whenever he comes round and plays on my acoustic pianos, he has a terrible tendency to bang away. He even admits he just doesnt have any dynamic control on acoustics after paying the rh2 action.

I used to really like the PHAIII action and thought it was easily the most realistic of the slab dp actions. But then people on this forum started talking about the noise of the key bed and it kind of sullied the experience for me. I still think it's the best plastic action out there by a long shot, but I notice the mechanical sound now whereas I didn't originally. Thanks pianoworld. Anyway the PHAIV improved on the mechanical noise of the PHAIII but in the process they ruined a lot of the feel of it, what I liked anyway and found realistic about the PHAIII. The hard bottoming out is actually much more acoustic like than the spongy nonsense of the PHAIV. But even given this, the PHAIV is definitely a higher quality action than the RH2. No contest. Id put the casio action of this generation in the middle, but that one suffers from a dreadful key top plastic feel.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by toddy
less noisy mechanically.

It comes up a lot but that seems to me to be such a situation-specific concern. I understand the importance if you're playing with headphones and trying to not bother others, or if you're playing at an unnaturally quiet volume. But the mechanisms of real pianos are pretty noisy... you just don't notice because of how much louder the overall volume of the piano is. If you're playing at normal levels or aren't trying to be quiet for others, it doesn't matter. I get why it matters to some people, but sometimes the feature of a quiet action seems to be thrown around in conversations here as if it is inherently better, when for many (most?) people, I think it doesn't matter at all.

But yeah, I am looking forward to trying the RD-800 one of these days. It will be tough for it to beat the PHAIII for me because, like you, I think that was one of the best actions I'd played on. Even though I'm not the biggest fan of the Roland piano sound, I really enjoyed playing the FP-7 and FP-7F. (Never tried the FP80.)

Originally Posted by toddy
PS I can only imagine that the 'six level sensor' referred to but not explained above by trigalg693 is the number of samples across the velocity spectrum. Though having said that, neither Kawai - and certainly not Roland - seem willing to divulge that kind of information re their sound engines. Yamaha and Casio used to....

I think your "having said that" disclaimer does kind of rule out that interpretation... I'm not aware of there being any common knowledge of the FP4 or MP6 having six velocity layers. And in just checking the DPBSD thread, it looks like the MP6 is probably four, and the FP4 is probably 3. (Six would actually have been an awful lot considering how long ago the FP4 came out, and that it wasn't even a high end model!) At any rate, with Roland's SN modeling, it isn't even a relevant figure on their boards these days.


I can confirm that the sampling used as a part of the SUPERNatural sound, is an 88 key 4 level multisample. As anotherscott mentioned, once the modelling takes over, the number of samples effectively becomes 128. Although the rest of the "samples" are actually physical models. Also on all PHA-4 equipped models, we utilize a triple key action sensor with a separate CPU that is scanning the keybed (Like on V-Piano) to give the sound engine the most accurate input as possible.

Jay

Last edited by Jay Roland; 10/14/14 08:55 PM.

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I ordered the Kawai MP7 and played it for a few days at home, listening with good headphones. Then I ordered the Roland RD-800 and played it for about 6 hours so far with headphones. Here is my impression.

The Kawai Concert Grand and Mello Grand sound fantastic. The Concert Grand and Bright Grand on the Roland do not sound as good -- they sound muffled or in a box. I tried for one hour to adjust the Roland to get a sound as good as the Kawai grand piano sound, but could not do it. The Roland pianos just do not have the clean alive piano sound like the Kawai.

The Roland action is a dream, fantastic and makes it easy to play fast and with
creative expression. The Kawai is not nearly as good as the Roland. I found myself hitting the keys a little harder on the Kawai to try getting better expression, but it just does not equal the Roland.

If I could only have the Kawai piano sounds in the Roland keyboard, then I would
be happy.

I previously tried the Yamaha MOXF8, but did not like the looping sound in the
pianos (D3, Eb3, E3 expecially), so I returned it.

The Roland does not let you record the rhythm, when making a recording, but it will let you save it to a live set with the sounds.

The Kawai will let you record the rhythm, but it will not let you save it with
the sound in the setup. I did not like the Kawai's method of saving sounds. You
can save them, but they are saved in under the preassigned labels (Piano, Strings, E. Piano).

The Roland saving method is much better. You save the sounds to A-01, A-02, or
B-01, B-02 ... B-20, etc.

Any questions? I will try to answer.

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Originally Posted by Paul Mann
I found myself hitting the keys a little harder on the Kawai to try getting better expression, but it just does not equal the Roland.

Did you try creating a User Touch Curve on the Kawai?

Originally Posted by Paul Mann
If I could only have the Kawai piano sounds in the Roland keyboard, then I would
be happy.

Too bad sound modules have fallen out of favor! We're not likely to see the Kawai piano sound in a box. You might like using the Roland to play a Kawai-based VST, though. At least it will give you a Kawai piano sound. Otherwise all you can do is keep both boards and run a MIDI cable between them!

Originally Posted by Paul Mann
I previously tried the Yamaha MOXF8, but did not like the looping sound in the
pianos (D3, Eb3, E3 expecially), so I returned it.

A nice thing about the MOXF8 is that, with the flash card, there are lots of other pianos you can load into it, including some that are quite large with less looping and stretching. It's also nicely lightweight for gigging. I think it sometimes gets overlooked as a perfectly viable DP choice, probably in part because, at its price, you can get generally nicer actions than its GHS, and more advanced piano-specific features like triple sensors or string resonance. But you know, lots of people are quite content with the feel of their P35, P105, etc. and don't necessarily need some of the other features, and the MOXF8 has a lot to recommend it. It's the least expensive board you can load a wide variety of entirely different piano sounds into (kind of a poor man's Nord in that respect), and Yamaha has a lot of other really strong sound (winds, strings, brass, etc.). As someone who also plays a lot of non-piano sounds, I also like the idea of putting a MOXF6 over your 88 of choice, which also gives you the option of playing the MOXF pianos from that 88 action.

Originally Posted by Paul Mann
I did not like the Kawai's method of saving sounds. You
can save them, but they are saved in under the preassigned labels (Piano, Strings, E. Piano).

The Roland saving method is much better. You save the sounds to A-01, A-02, or
B-01, B-02 ... B-20, etc.

On the Kawai, you can save your setups to any location. You can ignore the preassigned categories. (BTW, you'll notice that the labeled buttons also have numbers underneath, so you can easily, for example, look at the Piano button alternately as the Bank 1 button for your custom Setups.)

I haven't used the Roland, but coincidentally, I did see someone complain about how it handled the saving of custom sounds... maybe he wasn't using it right, I don't know, but that and other points related to this discussion can also be found in the recent thread at
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2342079

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anotherscott, thanks for the advice. I did not try the touch curve on the Kawai to change the key action. I did change the action feel: light+, light, heavy, heavy+, but that did not give me a better feel.

The Roland action has a more bouncy feel and my fingers know where they are in a
better kind of way. I played a Steinway grand piano for about 10 years, so my fingers "know" what a piano feels like.

I did not notice the numbers underneath the category names. That would be useful
for me. I guess I could get used to it. This will be my first digital piano.

Actually, the Kawai MP7 is easier to get to the sound you want -- just push 3 buttons, whereas the Roland requires pushing one button and turning the dial
to find the sound in a list of 100 sounds.

Even if you save your sound to a live set with the Roland, you have to push a button and scroll through a list of sounds (unless the one you want is the first
in the list).

It's not an easy choice -- which one I will keep.

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Originally Posted by Paul Mann
Even if you save your sound to a live set with the Roland, you have to push a button and scroll through a list of sounds (unless the one you want is the first
in the list).

Yeah, that sounds pretty much like the issue the other guy was having, and seems to be a place that Kawai has the advantage, in easy recall of your custom sounds/setups (keeping in mind that a setup can be nothing more than a custom sound, if that's all you need).

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