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Hello. First post, so go easy on me. wink

First, some background...

I have a Yamaha PF85 that I bought when they first came out. I've had to repair it myself a few times, but the tank (as I affectionately refer to it) has served me well. When technology overtook the piano samples built inside, I began using it solely as a midi controller. Currently, I use (most likely) outdated Native Instruments software (can't recall the name) that has about 14 grand pianos. I usually play the Steinways. They sound terrific to me and are customizable. I use the free ASIO driver.

I am far from a professional. I mainly play just by myself for my own pleasure (self-taught). I love classical and jazz, but don't play much of either on piano (I play guitar also - my first instrument). e.g. I play a lot of Joe Jackson. I only use the single sustain pedal. I have the "wood" stand (not sure what model it is). I live in an apartment - so I always play through headphones. I would like to perhaps try to do some gigs in the future, which would make it a real PITA to bring the PF85 (due to it being so heavy).

I have a programming background as well, and many years ago wrote custom assembly language routines back when MIDI first came onto the scene (there was so little software and hardware available then). But I have not looked into the midi specification in many years (i.e. I don't know if there have been improvements with the protocol).

All that to ask the following: For my particular situation, would it be worth it to get something like a PX-150 or P105, given that it would be primarily used as a controller? Has the "playability" and/or midi technology improved substantially? a) If the touch/feel is much better today than on the PF85 - it would be worth it. b) If the current digital pianos send different MIDI data or have greater sensitivity, resolution, etc., then ti would also be worth it. (I find my PF85 is not very sensitive or dynamic velocity-wise). I am not wealthy by any means, but would be willing to fork out up to $1K if I felt it was worth it - since it'll probably be with me for quite a long time.

Please do not reply "go try them" as I cannot easily do so (I am not in good health). Even if I could get to play one or two of the current models in my price range, while I could get an idea of their "feel", there is no way I would be able to connect them to midi/software and compare them to each other and/or my PF85 to see what the difference (if any) would be solely as midi controllers. I've read a lot of reviews, watched the videos, read the specs for quite a few of the current offerings within my price range. I"m actually a bit disappointed at the built-in sound quality. I would have thought that by now they'd be superior to what I've heard. IMO, the NI s/w I use produces far truer piano sounds. Thus, I'm not that interested in the built-in sounds. The feel and the midi is what interests me (not the bells and whistles either).

I would greatly appreciate your opinions and comments. Thank you.

Last edited by slickvguy; 04/20/14 06:03 PM.
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My suggestion: go with PX-150 and avoid P105. The action on P105 is one of the poorest, while the on on the Casio is much better.


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Yes, the PX-150 is pretty good value for the money, although if your budget is up to $1000, check out the more advanced PX-5S or PX-350. The PX-5S has no speakers, but the PX-350 has them. The 5S, which is my piano, has also socalled High resolution MIDI, which is supposedly good for controlling software pianos.

There isn't much information available for your Yamaha PF-85 but according to this source, it has a heavy weighted action, considered good at the time it came on the market, at least. Do you need to update? You say the PF85 sounds good with your software pianos from Native Instruments.

Last edited by TheodorN; 04/20/14 06:31 PM.

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The Casio action is the same for all their PXs, and since you are really looking for more of a controller, go with the px-150 and use the money leftover for an upgrade in your software. I don't know about your NI, but there are some great software pianos out there that are affordable and well worth it. Check out Vi labs pianos.


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The Roland F20 and A88 would be worth looking at and on budget. They both have 88 key hammer action "Ivory Feel G" keyboard, and cost about the same. The F20 has SuperNATURAL piano sounds built in, which are very good (based on a Steinway and partly modelled, so no stretching or looping), MIDI over USB, and speakers. The A88 has no sounds or speakers, but is designed as a MIDI controller so has more facilities for that.


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A correction, the PX-150 and 350 also support hi-res MIDI, according to my findings, and therefore probably just as good controllers as the PX-5S, especially for someone who doesn't care about extra sounds. The Roland A-88 looks good, although the last Sweetwater reviewer has some reservations about it's dynamic control.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/A88/reviews

Last edited by TheodorN; 04/20/14 07:52 PM.

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Yes, I would suggest the PX-150 for the same reasons outlined by Morodiene. The P105 utilises the same 'GHS' keyboard action as your current P85, therefore I don't believe it would be a noticeable upgrade over what you already have.

I'm obviously a little biased, however my other recommendation would be to save a little longer in order to purchase a dedicated controller such as the VPC1.

Best of luck!
James
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I was thinking the same thing, James! The VPC1 is a great instrument and it sounds just like what you need.


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VPC1 is always a viable option, even for those on a budget. A small correction still, the original poster has a Yamaha PF85, not P85. At first I thought it was a typing error, and I'm sure James knows about this instrument a lot more than I do, given his experience.

It seems to be a fine instrument, at least considering it's age, the more reason to be patient letting it serve it's purpose a bit longer, and keep saving for something very good. As a general rule, I'd think, the more expensive the instrument, the better it is.


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Ah, well spotted TheodorN...I did indeed think that the original poster was referring to the P85. In which case the P105 may be an upgrade after all.

Kind regards,
James
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Thanks for all the replies!

Yes, it's a PF85 (not P85). At the time, it was quite expensive and cutting edge. Only came with FIVE built-in sounds. AWM. The piano sounds were the best I could find for under $10K back then. If I play it using the built-in sounds now, it's actually funny that I thought it sounded like a piano. We've come a looooong way w/ the sampling and modeling. It is "heavy-weighted", but not graded (i.e. every key feels the same). Inside, there is a long "bubble-wrap-ish" membrane running under all the keys, which provides part of the "feel". It breaks down over time (and then cracks - making some keys stick). I've had to replace it twice. I find it "kludgy". It plays "slow", if that makes any sense. Nice to sink into w/ slower-paced ballads, deep, layered chords, etc., but not something you would want to play fast or with lots of runs of notes (e.g. jazz).

I should have mentioned I live in Canada. The prices here are quite a bit higher than the US (app. +30%) for the same instrument. PLUS, our sales taxes are over 15% combined! It's crazy. Ordering from the US (which I do often) is not something I would think to do for this (due to warranty/servicing issues) - but maybe I'm wrong about that? For example, the PX-150 is selling for close to $700 here. A big box retailer has an Easter special on the PX-150 for $500 - which by Canadian standards is an excellent price - but they are sold out online and I can't find one in any of the stores. Plus, I will need another stand. So add that to the price as well. I won't get a cheap stand because I see the keyboards shaking in many of the videos where the piano is on an "X" stand.

Although I mentioned the PX-150 and P105, I'd likely go one tier higher. The PX-350 or the PX-5S (which seems very cool, though lacking a few features I wouldn't mind having) or the P-155 (?). I think the PX-350 would be a fine choice. There are pros and cons to every unit. The PX-350 strikes a good balance for my needs. But I have yet to play one! I saw a price of $800 advertised online from a Toronto store. That's probably the lowest I could get it for. Add a stand and taxes and that would be well over $1K (not including the 3 pedal kit).

I did a fast search for the VPC1. The prices that came up were close to $2K US - definitely more than I want to spend.

I read about the "high resolution MIDI" but are there MIDI applications that take advantage of it? To me, that isn't as important as the keyboard sending a wide range of velocity values (even if only 0 to 127). That's one problem w/ the PF85 as a controller. It doesn't send enough different values. Basically hard, medium, soft. Thus it's quite lacking in terms of velocity.

It's becoming clear that I should get a midi controller w/ very good feel, and better/different software (and the proper hardware to run it on - SSD, lots of RAM, strong multi-core CPU, etc). I've read that pianoteq is a good one. It's been a while since I researched piano software, so I have some homework to do. Morodiene, thanks for the suggestion, I'll check 'em out.

Bottom line: I am confident that the models we're discussing will provide a better playing experience and are superior to the pF85 as far as playing the built-in sounds. What I'm trying to get a handle on is whether or not that will translate to a better playing experience if I'm just using the keyboard to drive the software.


Last edited by slickvguy; 04/21/14 01:47 AM.
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It's a long shot, but a Korg SP-250 would seem like a viable option. It's been discontinued a couple years ago, but maybe there are some still available, last time I saw they were selling for 600-700$.
If you manage to locate one - don't hesitate: it has way better action than anything Yamaha or Casio have to offer in that price range, and it comes with a stand.

Last edited by Kos; 04/21/14 12:30 PM.

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Originally Posted by Kos
It's a long shot, but a Korg SP-250 would seem like a viable option. It's been discontinued a couple years ago, but maybe there are some still available, last time I saw they were selling for 600-700$.
If you manage to locate one - don't hesitate: it has way better action than anything Yamaha or Casio have to offer in that price range, and it comes with a stand.


Thanks. I'll look into it.

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Originally Posted by slickvguy
Originally Posted by Kos
It's a long shot, but a Korg SP-250 would seem like a viable option. It's been discontinued a couple years ago, but maybe there are some still available, last time I saw they were selling for 600-700$.
If you manage to locate one - don't hesitate: it has way better action than anything Yamaha or Casio have to offer in that price range, and it comes with a stand.


Thanks. I'll look into it.


I have heard good things about the action (same as in Kronos), but read this as well
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubb...this%20before%20you%20buy%20Korg%20.html


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BTW, the NI s/w I have is called Akoustik Piano. Couldn't remember the name when I posted. I find a few of the piano sounds far more realistic than anything I've heard from built-in sounds in the < $2K range. I've never sat and played a $10K digital piano, so I can't speak to the most expensive models. As the s/w is quite a few years old (2007?), I am lookign forward to hearing the latest/greatest.

On a sadder note, I had a truly awful day today which ended up costing me a "PX-150" in terms of absolute dollars. frown So much for that dream....

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Originally Posted by slickvguy
BTW, the NI s/w I have is called Akoustik Piano. Couldn't remember the name when I posted. I find a few of the piano sounds far more realistic than anything I've heard from built-in sounds in the < $2K range. I've never sat and played a $10K digital piano, so I can't speak to the most expensive models. As the s/w is quite a few years old (2007?), I am lookign forward to hearing the latest/greatest.

On a sadder note, I had a truly awful day today which ended up costing me a "PX-150" in terms of absolute dollars. frown So much for that dream....


Well, look on the bright side, you can still upgrade your sounds and continue to use your current DP until you can save up for the VPC1 smile . That alone will make a huge difference.


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If you are thinking of taking your piano out and playing with others, the 150 does not have the correct Audio Output jacks to do that. The 350 and PX5S do. If you can get it the PX5S, is a solution that you can enjoy playing without external software(as is the 350).

I have the PX5S, it's a step ahead of the 350, it's Casio's most professional Privia.

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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Well, look on the bright side, you can still upgrade your sounds and continue to use your current DP until you can save up for the VPC1 smile . That alone will make a huge difference.


Thank you. Good attitude. And true.

Isn't it remarkable that I bought the PF85 about 25 years ago and it's still going strong? Aside from the plastic membrane replacement, and a few minor adjustments, the thing just won't quit on me! lol. I'm like "Die already! I want a new DP!" (j/k).

I've been quite depressed lately over my piano (and guitar) playing. In doing the research, I've come across so many excellent players in the demos, that I find it discouraging. it's one thing to listen to great, professional musicians. It's quite another to SEE so many amateurs on youtube who can play so well. As far as piano playing goes, I'm self-taught and have never taken a lesson. I started playing guitar at 7. Took about 5 years of lessons. Started teaching myself piano at around 15. Been playing both instruments - on and off - since then. I play well enough for an amateur. But when I hear/see these players switching between styles so easily, doing terrific runs up and down the board, complex beautiful chords (both hands mixing it up), great jazz licks (which I *LOVE* but have never even attempted to learn), it makes me very sad. I'd rate my level as being good enough for local bands, bar gigs, etc. But I got so tired of playing within the same range of ability for such a long period of time that I pretty much stopped playing about 10 months ago (which is very unlike me). I'm trying to get motivated for a renaissance. I just got so bored with what I already can play. I imagine what I need is a teacher and to start learning new things. Especially jazz.

As I became older my musical tastes evolved and I listen to jazz about 75% of the time and classical the other 25%. A lot of instrumental stuff too of various styles. So beautiful to listen to, but I'm envious and frustrated. Because I am self-taught, I do not have proper form on the piano. My left hand is lame (I mainly play an octave on the tonic and slip in 3rds and 5ths). I can make it all sound ok to people who don't know any better, but to people who do know (like most on this site) - it's a far cry from how it should be played. My right hand is decent and feels much more comfortable on the keys than my left (which I suppose comes from the finger-picking on guitar). I know I can do it. I have the talent to be able to play at a level that would satisfy me. I can *HEAR* it and FEEL it. But at 51, it seems like a huge challenge to "start again". I"m stuck. I can't go back to what I was doing for most of my life and I can't play any of the things (yet?) that I would want to at this point. I have friends who play in local bands, and I could get that going, but it just seems boring and "yesterday" to me. They're in it for the attention and fun - "glory days" - which is fine...but that's not for me. I'm in it for the MUSIC. There's a big difference. I'm in such awe of brilliance of some of the composers AND the skill of some of the players. Don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting to ever be a "great" ("world class") player. That's not going to happen. But I need something far better than before. Can't go back there. That's why I'm not playing. I've put an end to the old version of me as a musician - but have nothing yet to replace it with.

Anyway. Sorry for going off-topic. Needed to get that out. wink
Going through a process of discovery and reflection.

All of your posts have been very helpful. Much appreciated. Thank you.


Last edited by slickvguy; 04/22/14 03:01 PM.
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You might consider the Yamaha CP33, which has above average controller functions, proven key action, a recent price drop...and considering its age, the on-board sounds have held up pretty well...heck, they still ship---albeit updated---on new Yamaha boards.

Just a thought, if you haven't already committed.

Last edited by dje31; 04/22/14 07:02 PM.

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Originally Posted by slickvguy
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Well, look on the bright side, you can still upgrade your sounds and continue to use your current DP until you can save up for the VPC1 smile . That alone will make a huge difference.


Thank you. Good attitude. And true.

Isn't it remarkable that I bought the PF85 about 25 years ago and it's still going strong? Aside from the plastic membrane replacement, and a few minor adjustments, the thing just won't quit on me! lol. I'm like "Die already! I want a new DP!" (j/k).

I've been quite depressed lately over my piano (and guitar) playing. In doing the research, I've come across so many excellent players in the demos, that I find it discouraging. it's one thing to listen to great, professional musicians. It's quite another to SEE so many amateurs on youtube who can play so well. As far as piano playing goes, I'm self-taught and have never taken a lesson. I started playing guitar at 7. Took about 5 years of lessons. Started teaching myself piano at around 15. Been playing both instruments - on and off - since then. I play well enough for an amateur. But when I hear/see these players switching between styles so easily, doing terrific runs up and down the board, complex beautiful chords (both hands mixing it up), great jazz licks (which I *LOVE* but have never even attempted to learn), it makes me very sad. I'd rate my level as being good enough for local bands, bar gigs, etc. But I got so tired of playing within the same range of ability for such a long period of time that I pretty much stopped playing about 10 months ago (which is very unlike me). I'm trying to get motivated for a renaissance. I just got so bored with what I already can play. I imagine what I need is a teacher and to start learning new things. Especially jazz.

As I became older my musical tastes evolved and I listen to jazz about 75% of the time and classical the other 25%. A lot of instrumental stuff too of various styles. So beautiful to listen to, but I'm envious and frustrated. Because I am self-taught, I do not have proper form on the piano. My left hand is lame (I mainly play an octave on the tonic and slip in 3rds and 5ths). I can make it all sound ok to people who don't know any better, but to people who do know (like most on this site) - it's a far cry from how it should be played. My right hand is decent and feels much more comfortable on the keys than my left (which I suppose comes from the finger-picking on guitar). I know I can do it. I have the talent to be able to play at a level that would satisfy me. I can *HEAR* it and FEEL it. But at 51, it seems like a huge challenge to "start again". I"m stuck. I can't go back to what I was doing for most of my life and I can't play any of the things (yet?) that I would want to at this point. I have friends who play in local bands, and I could get that going, but it just seems boring and "yesterday" to me. They're in it for the attention and fun - "glory days" - which is fine...but that's not for me. I'm in it for the MUSIC. There's a big difference. I'm in such awe of brilliance of some of the composers AND the skill of some of the players. Don't get me wrong. I'm not expecting to ever be a "great" ("world class") player. That's not going to happen. But I need something far better than before. Can't go back there. That's why I'm not playing. I've put an end to the old version of me as a musician - but have nothing yet to replace it with.

Anyway. Sorry for going off-topic. Needed to get that out. wink
Going through a process of discovery and reflection.

All of your posts have been very helpful. Much appreciated. Thank you.



I have a story for you. There was this dog and his yard was fenced in. On the other side of the fence was a big juicy steak that he really really wanted, but not matter how high he jumped, how low he dug, or how much he ran into the fence, he just couldn't get at the steak that was literally inches away.

What he didn't realize was that about 20 feet to the left, the gate to the fence was open. Yes, he'd have to walk 20 feet away from his goal - the steak - and then walk another 20 feet back toward his goal, so 40 feet to get something that was inches away. However, without doing so, there was no way he was going to achieve his goal, no matter how close it appeared to be. That steak might as well be miles away.

Sometimes we want something but we aren't willing to take the steps to get there. You are trying to teach yourself how to do something of which you are not an expert. How does that work? Your left hand is weak and needs help, and a teacher (a good one) would know exactly how to help you.

It's a long process, yes, but at least you'll be making progress towards your goal of being able to play independently and expressively. Take the steps to find a good teacher. You'll be kicking yourself about not doing it sooner, but it really is never too late to improve.


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