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BDB #2208219 01/04/14 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BDB
I am not convinced that an electronic device is faster than aural tuning. It is a moot point, when we set the prices of our services. If it takes longer, we can charge more. You have to charge more for extra equipment, anyway. I tune pianos with one to three mutes, a mute strip, a screwdriver to insert the strip, a tuning lever, and a tuning fork. I do not need to charge any batteries or do any regular maintenance on any of my equipment, and that saves a lot of time.

I believe that the organic nature of piano hammers, specifically the felt, affects the tuning, and that the mechanical nature of microphones affects the ability of electronics to reflect the relationship of intervals accurately.

There are other aspects of piano maintenance that cannot be done well unless you attune your ears, and tuning pianos aurally is the best way of doing that. Aural tuning gets better with practice. Software upgrades are automatic.


+1

Most of the time these days, I use an ETD as something to stare at while I concentrate on what I'm hearing (TuneLab, most of the time). If i'm in a hurry, I put the ETD away. I can complete an aural, meticulous tuning in less than forty-five minutes these days. I owe that to my Fujan lever more than anything else.


Last edited by OperaTenor; 01/04/14 05:51 PM.

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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Emmery
Marty/Jim, I've had several intelligent people look at my previous posting and they all agree there is nothing offensive or insulting in it. If you disagree, complain to the forum moderator....or go pound sand.

Back to the subject of organic pianos supposedly only responding well to aural tuning.

You can take a mixture of 10 natural organic compounds and mix them up into slurry of goop and try and get anybody to identify all of them and their proper ratios using only their natural senses.... see what they get?

Use scientific based machines like gas chromatography or a mass spectrometry to do the analysis and you will have the exact answer. ETD's show us tuners what the contents of the sound are, we and/or the software guide the machine to pinpoint what we want, we can use that information exactly the same way aural tuners do, comparatively, or we can use it to simply put a string at a target frequency; or as many of us hybrid tuners do, we use the visual display and our ears together to confirm the correct target to set.

I know of nobody who can aurally tune a temperament and only touch each of the 13 pins once...there is a fair amount of adjusting and returning and "fitting in" of things going on. Wasted/needless time robbing redundancy as far as I'm concerned. The ETD will put from 90-100% of the notes within a fraction of a cent in the same place on the temperament map, and aural adjusting (if needed), takes a fraction of the time to end up with the same results as a full aural temperament. I get paid for the tuning, not by the hour, so the ETD as a helping tool and time saver for me is a no brainer in this respect. It is also unequalled in its accuracy on 1st pass pitch raises from my experience. Paid for itself in the first 3 months of its use.



Emmery, what program do you use?

I'm on my second tuning with Tunelab, and it's going
well. But 8:4 in the bass might be stretching
the bass a bit too much for my taste....so I may
re-tune with the 6:3 default. We shall see....


I use RCT on a small solid state hard drive net book (no fan noise)and and external microphone. Its rigged with a modified wireless mouse converted to a foot switch since I have note jumping locked down and put on manual switching.

Nailing the bass with an ETD is a daunting task at best. On many pianos the 6:3 just won't cut it....Baldwins come to mind. I take two approaches to this with RCT. I like to use the pianalyzer function on a few of the lowest notes just to see if some of the higher partials are more prevelant.

Then I tune a few samples true to what my ear thinks is best. I take a reading on them and jot down the offset. I switch RCT to advanced mode and incorporate the sliders EQ function and adjust the bass to match what my aural samples measured at. The software will then blend the connecting octaves for a very smooth transition to the custom adjusted bass.


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In my view, tuning is mainly about intonation, beats, and string-Vs-pin setting.

IMO, the aural tuner is enabled to check intervals-and-beats aurally “as you go” and hopefully will be able to set all partial-matching conveniently. This can indeed take more time, compared with an average ETD pass, and the amount of overtime will depend mainly on the individual skill (…I think). How many years will it take in order to develop good all-round skills, it will depend on the school, individual abilities, and motivations.

Hopefully, the skilled aural tuner that goes ETD is still enabled to “judge” the tuning in terms of intervals-intonation and beats, and in case re-model and correct the ETD tuning there and then. This is possible only if a piano tuner has aural-tuning skills, here referring (again) to “intonation” and beats, but I would not be surprised if a skilled/aural tuner decided to go “mindless” (with all respect), whatever the reason, and happily execute what a led says.

No doubt, intonation-wise, an ETD cannot return any feedback; also, when it comes to discerning beats and tempered intervals, a skilled ear can be much faster than the electronic devices I see around.

In other words, it is not “hearing beats” that takes more time (in normal conditions), nor having to set the pin (as that is due (?) in any case); the skilled tuner can “feel” the pin and evaluate the pin-Vs-string-Vs-beat relation. Then yes, “aural” might take longer when we want to make sure that all intervals are progressing correctly, that all intervals sound truly in tune, and that the piano is adjusting and settling conveniently, which is when the job is being done at its best.

One (customer or tuner) may well accept that tuning is about stopping a led, or pulling strings and adjusting beats only, but tuning can be also thought as setting sounds-and-matter together, and "matter" (read individual pianos)is unique. If one does not know about this, this won’t be missed.

In a nutshell, the skilled aural tuner can evaluate what customers and events are asking for and - in case - he/she can decide when to devote more time or go mindless; the only-ETD-tuner will have to rely on the device. Oh, perhaps that’s fair enough for some of them... average performance, average time, average fare, average product.

Emmery, if an ETD can act as a central meeting point between two people... all the better, really; in my case that point is my aural tuning.

Regards, a.c.
.


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Getting back to Hakki's original question --
For a while I was the head staff person in a university science department. Staff were well aware that the faculty loved giving opinions and were often well paid for their opinions. All staff were expected to be pleasant and affable when professors offered opinions on tasks in which the staff member was expert, to minimize the time taken for such discussions, and to do the job right once left alone.
Hakki's desire is not unusual for a faculty member, but his wife has given him good advice.


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Originally Posted by Emmery


I use RCT on a small solid state hard drive net book (no fan noise)and and external microphone. Its rigged with a modified wireless mouse converted to a foot switch since I have note jumping locked down and put on manual switching.

Nailing the bass with an ETD is a daunting task at best. On many pianos the 6:3 just won't cut it....Baldwins come to mind. I take two approaches to this with RCT. I like to use the pianalyzer function on a few of the lowest notes just to see if some of the higher partials are more prevelant.

Then I tune a few samples true to what my ear thinks is best. I take a reading on them and jot down the offset. I switch RCT to advanced mode and incorporate the sliders EQ function and adjust the bass to match what my aural samples measured at. The software will then blend the connecting octaves for a very smooth transition to the custom adjusted bass.


Ok, Reyburn Cybertuner. Can you sample ALL the notes before tuning, as you can in Dirk's program?

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Today I started to tune my Weber with Dirk's software...did a little experiment. I used the built in mic of this new, fairly expensive laptop, to first calibrate it with his software..this takes about 5 mins, then sampled all 88 notes and produced a graph.


I then tried an outboard USB mic, a Samson G-Track Stereo mic, very good quality for what it is...did the calibration and then the graph. There is a difference in the two graphs. The built in laptop mic had a different take on a lot of the notes. I can't help but wonder if this would affect the tuning. Dirk's software had a much faster sampling of all 88 notes with the Samson, than the laptop mic did. Some of the differences could be due to mic placement. One other thing...I could not for the life of me, get the software to sample note 87 and 88 with the built-in mic, no matter what I did, position etc, and there were about 6 notes that did not sample correctly as well. The Samson had no trouble with 87 and 88, and all the notes took the first time....interesting.

I am using the Samson tuning, and so far it sounds very good. Will post a few recordings after I am finished.


The green line is the tuning that exists on the Weber, the red line is what Dirks software calculated after listening to all 88 notes. Notice that on the laptop mic, notes 87 and 88 are blank.


Samson G-Track Graph

[Linked Image]


Laptop built-in mic Graph

[Linked Image]


Last edited by Grandpianoman; 01/04/14 11:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
[...] The built in laptop mic had a different take on a lot of the notes. I can't help but wonder if this would affect the tuning. [...]


I would think so, GP, but I'm not sure how, exactly.

But in asking your question... you have provided me with an opening to share this wonderful site that I stumbled across a few days ago...

http://www.coutant.org/contents.html

smile


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Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Today I started to tune my Weber with Dirk's software...did a little experiment. I used the built in mic of this new, fairly expensive laptop, to first calibrate it with his software..this takes about 5 mins, then sampled all 88 notes and produced a graph.


I then tried an outboard USB mic, a Samson G-Track Stereo mic, very good quality for what it is...did the calibration and then the graph. There is a difference in the two graphs. The built in laptop mic had a different take on a lot of the notes. I can't help but wonder if this would affect the tuning. Dirk's software had a much faster sampling of all 88 notes with the Samson, than the laptop mic did. Some of the differences could be due to mic placement. One other thing...I could not for the life of me, get the software to sample note 87 and 88 with the built-in mic, no matter what I did, position etc, and there were about 6 notes that did not sample correctly as well. The Samson had no trouble with 87 and 88, and all the notes took the first time....interesting.

I am using the Samson tuning, and so far it sounds very good. Will post a few recordings after I am finished.


Samson G-Track Graph

[Linked Image]


Laptop built-in mic Graph

[Linked Image]



Wow, I can't wait to hear your tuning!

It's gonna kick butt, I know!

Yes, the programs look at the frequency, but
also the amplitude, so the frequency response
of the mic you use will matter some. However,
doesn't Dirk's program only take ONE sample per
note? That's the way he did it in the video.
With Tunelab, you can sample as many times as you
wish, and it will average them all.

My point is, if you re-sampled a second time
with the same mic, you may end up with a
graph that is just as varied as if you had used
another mic. Measurement repeatability in engineering
terms, or Gaussian distribution curve for each note.

But that's a great idea to use a USB mic! I'm
currently using a battery powered Shure BG 4.0
condenser mic, going into a very bulky high Z
balun, and it would be so much cleaner to use a
USB mic.

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That's interesting Paul.....I know with my other ETD's, if I move the ETD during a tuning, then go back and check a string I know was dead on a sec ago, it's not dead on anymore!

will post a few recordings when I can go back over and clean up the unisons etc....the piano was fairly low, 10 cents flat pretty much...so it is going to take another pass.....but already it sounds very nice.



Last edited by Grandpianoman; 01/05/14 03:46 AM.
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Very informative site Andy..thanks!

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If you can't tune a piano without a machine, you can't tune a piano WITH one.


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Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
If you can't tune a piano without a machine, you can't tune a piano WITH one.


This is just not true. At all. In fact, this is so untrue that it barely deserves a response.

To score a 100% on the PTG tuning exam, the examinee must tune so that his or her tuning deviates no more than the following from the master tuning:

A-440: 1 cents
Octave 1: 5.9 cents
Octave 2: 2.9 cents
Octave 3&4: .9 cents
Octave 5: 1.9 cents
Octave 6: 2.9 cents
Octave 7: 5.9 cents

Unisons in octaves 3&4: .9 cents
Stability in octaves 3&4: .9 cents



An examinee must score an 80% in each section to pass. This means that...

a 3 cent deviation from A-440 is still passing with an 80%.

in the temperament octave, 8 points is still a passing score of 80%. There are 13 notes in an octave, and the examinee can have 8 errors of 1 cent (above the .9 cent tolerance), yet still pass! i.e. a 1.9 cent deviation from the master tuning on any given note in this section is scored as a 1 point penalty.

in the midrange (C3-B4, minus temperament octave), 13 points is still a passing score of 80%. Again, that's like half the notes that can have an error of 1 cent (above the .9 cent tolerance).

Etc, etc, etc...

This is what the PTG, aka the premier piano tuning organization in the US, deems acceptable to attain its coveted RPT status. With careful study, it's possible to exceed these standards with less than 100 ETD tunings.









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Originally Posted by bellspiano
Getting back to Hakki's original question --

I believe the Hakki's main aim is for his piano to be tuned to the highest possible standard. If there are no concert level tuners around what should he do?

He might categorize tuners something like this:
  • Tuners who tune aurally at concert level with an 88 note temperament in mind.
  • Tuners who tune perfectly progressive intervals aurally, some using ETDs to improve their productivity and accuracy.
  • Tuners who satisfy their customers using ETDs or aural methods with tunings that may not be perfectly progressive.
  • Amateurs who take advantage of ETDs to tune their own pianos.
It seems that the only tuners Hakki knows are in the third category, using ETDs, and he would like them to start tuning aurally and graduate to the second category. That may or may not be wishful thinking.

In the amateur category, several posters have been very satisfied with Dirk's tuner. That means that results equivalent to category 2 and based on an 88 note temperament are possible. Whether GPM gives the thumbs up or not, Hakki might consider either trying it himself with a good quality or persuading one of his tuner friends to have a go.

The reason is that Dirk's tuner finds the best tuning by analysing all the intervals between all of the partials that the microphone picks up from the piano. Perhaps algorithms will improve in future, but this type of analysis is something that computers can do far better than most humans except those with the highest levels of experience and/or sensibility.

Last edited by Withindale; 01/05/14 08:36 AM.

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Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
Today I started to tune my Weber with Dirk's software...did a little experiment. I used the built in mic of this new, fairly expensive laptop, to first calibrate it with his software..this takes about 5 mins, then sampled all 88 notes and produced a graph.


I then tried an outboard USB mic, a Samson G-Track Stereo mic, very good quality for what it is...did the calibration and then the graph. There is a difference in the two graphs. The built in laptop mic had a different take on a lot of the notes. I can't help but wonder if this would affect the tuning. Dirk's software had a much faster sampling of all 88 notes with the Samson, than the laptop mic did. Some of the differences could be due to mic placement. One other thing...I could not for the life of me, get the software to sample note 87 and 88 with the built-in mic, no matter what I did, position etc, and there were about 6 notes that did not sample correctly as well. The Samson had no trouble with 87 and 88, and all the notes took the first time....interesting.

I am using the Samson tuning, and so far it sounds very good. Will post a few recordings after I am finished.


The green line is the tuning that exists on the Weber, the red line is what Dirks software calculated after listening to all 88 notes. Notice that on the laptop mic, notes 87 and 88 are blank.


Samson G-Track Graph

[Linked Image]


Laptop built-in mic Graph

[Linked Image]



Good morning Grandpianoman,

I think you should start a new thread on Dirk's tuner for us DIYers. I have used Dirk's for the last year and have numerous sets of values for the stretch curves when recorded from different places above and below the piano. The results are quite consistent with the greatest variation in the bass, as is to be expected.

It would be interesting to compare results.

Cheers




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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Emmery


I use RCT on a small solid state hard drive net book (no fan noise)and and external microphone. Its rigged with a modified wireless mouse converted to a foot switch since I have note jumping locked down and put on manual switching.

Nailing the bass with an ETD is a daunting task at best. On many pianos the 6:3 just won't cut it....Baldwins come to mind. I take two approaches to this with RCT. I like to use the pianalyzer function on a few of the lowest notes just to see if some of the higher partials are more prevelant.

Then I tune a few samples true to what my ear thinks is best. I take a reading on them and jot down the offset. I switch RCT to advanced mode and incorporate the sliders EQ function and adjust the bass to match what my aural samples measured at. The software will then blend the connecting octaves for a very smooth transition to the custom adjusted bass.


Ok, Reyburn Cybertuner. Can you sample ALL the notes before tuning, as you can in Dirk's program?


No you can't sample all the notes like with Dirk's program. Typically 5 or 6 notes are sampled (A's).

Do not kid yourself about sampling all the notes vs sampling a few across a wide spanse of the keyboard. First of all, Dirk's program requires you to sample only one string from 2 or 3 string unisons. So what makes you so sure that the string you select is exactly the same as its unison parners...as far as iH goes? Supppose you sample the one with a bit of rust on it, or a longer outer wrapping, or the one with a slightly longer/ shorter speaking length, or the one with a replaced newer string; how does Dirk's software know this or account for it.

The resultant computated template can and will be incorrect for these small anomolies and a tuner with no aural skills at recognizing this will put a unison of 3 strings into a state where the wrong 2 out of three will dominate the sound as opposed to an aurally blended error, or even a compromise where only 2 out of 3 on the unison is correct and the proper offending one sits outside (this results in 1/3 amplitude level vs 2/3).

I think that it has been highly glossed over with Dirk's how long it takes to initially sample 88 keys. I doubt it is simply 3 seconds X 88 = 6 minutes...likely more closer to 10 or 15 minutes. Losing that much time for sampling is a hard sell on an experienced tuner who typically is done the whole job in an hour IMHO.


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An ETD is a tool, just as a power lawn mower is to a landscaper; a level to a carpenter. More than likely, the ETD sets the pitch and the unisons are tuned by ear. In a noisy environment, they are a necessity. For multiple tunings, especially in the concrete cubical practice rooms, ear protection is a must also. So an ETD is an indispensable tool to a CAUT. An ETD can be programmed to tune as you would by ear with partial selection or multiple partial selection as with the Verituner.

If two similar pianos were set side-by-side and one tuned by ear and the other an ETD, you would not be able to tell the difference. This was proven to tuners at a convention with Virgil Smith and Jim Coleman. As Jim put it, not a dime's worth of difference.

So get off your romanticized preconceived notion about aural tuning.

Last edited by Jon Page; 01/05/14 01:27 PM.

Regards,

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Good morning Prout....thought the same thing...will start a new post with the recordings.

My experience so far with Dirks.....with the outboard Samson mic, it took appx 2-3 seconds to record each string. The built in mic was not quite as quick. With all my ETD's, I usually use the left string of each note for sampling. When I go back to tune once the calculations are done, I start out with the left string with the etd, then tune the remaining by ear, save for the last octave. If I hear false beats or some other strange sounds, or the ETD cannot get a steady reading with the left string, I will use another string. I then mark it on a piece of paper which notes/ strings those are, and use them accordingly.

When I switched to the Samson mic, it took 5 mins for Dirks to calibrate the mic with the computer/ and his software, as it does when you first use any mic. Once Dirks finishes the 88 note calculations, which take 3-4 mins, you can save it for future tunings on the same piano, just like the other ETD's. You also do not have to re sample the mic.

All 88 notes need to be sampled before it will make the tuning graph/curve. In my case with this short grand, the last two notes could not be read with the built- in mic, but were fine with the Samson USB mic. It did allow me to get a tuning without those last two notes. It would not allow a tuning with missing or poorly sampled notes elsewhere....that was the case for 6 notes using the built in mic. Re-sampling those, it then allowed a tuning/graph.

At this time, there are no abilities for anything other than tuning.

What I have heard so far, the Weber sounds good....will,post a few recordings in a new thread, after I go over the tuning again.




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Jon, I believe that person posted that comment just to flame, hence my yawn Not worth anything more than that.

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