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Originally Posted by OperaTenor
[...] Sure. As on-the-hook as anyone can be on an internet forum... laugh


LOL! Right! grin


Originally Posted by OperaTenor
[...] You don't think piano tuning is arbitrary?


I think it is arbitrary in the way that the science of art is arbitrary. Right? I mean, if it sounds good, it's good, right?

Are there efficient ways to get there?

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 01/02/14 09:11 PM.

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Originally Posted by OperaTenor

This Friday, when I tune at the Shout House, I'll take my H2 with me and record my temperament, so you guys take a turn at me...

I believe I'm tempering my 4ths and 5ths less than what I heard in the recording, but I think I'm still ending up with acceptable beat rates in my 3rds and 6ths.

I tune, you decide...


I'll be very interested to hear the results! Doel, only if you want to...aural results are good enough.

Please play first all M3's F3-F4, slowly, legato but andante tempo, Then all M6's. Then all chromatic 4ths, then all chromatic 5ths, then all M3-M6, then "inside 3rd-outside 6th" (if you know what that is), then last but certainly not least, CM3's: F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4, then F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4, then G3-B3 and B3-D#4, then G#3-C4 and C4-E4.

The above will be enough without numeric analyses to determine if the results are a reasonable ET or not. This is what an exam "pre-screener" would do. Any person wishing to take the tuning exam should first be pre-screened to avoid wasting time and money on an exam and also to avoid the distress of failure but also save the examiners from having to tell an examinee that the exam is a failure.

Let me make it clear that despite the problems Jeff had in his demonstrations and despite the fact that they were all basically "pitch correction" attempts (as were mine), I still believe that all of his results would have passed a PTG tuning exam.

So, let's be fair with each other about all of this. We talk about ET as a "standard" but in the end, we should all know and keep in mind that an absolute state of perfection can never really happen. That applies to all aspects of piano preparation. The closer to perfection, the longer it will take and the more difficult it will be to make any improvement.

Personally, I believe that the very best sound for the piano is not actually found in a perfected ET. I have long held that opinion. The Quasi ET that I developed by default (as most other Quasi ET's were in the 19th Century), the so named, "ET via Marpurg" actually has a superior sound to a strict ET because it has more beat cancellation properties than a true ET can ever have. So, when I see the need for clarity versus key signature color, I choose it.

The above is my opinion, of course, but I am sticking solidly with it. My efforts to help people improve ET construction are primarily to help people wishing to pass the PTG tuning exam. Secondarily, however, to help technicians avoid the very easily made mistake of Reverse Well. RW does not make any piano or any music sound better, only worse. C Major should never be the worst sounding triad with B Major and D-flat Major sounding lovely! That is NOT a description of either ET or of Quasi Equal Temperament!

If everyone who reads this topic and the above statement can grasp it and get an idea in mind about key signatures, the music of this world from pianos will sound better because of it.

ET is OK! Quasi ET is OK! Mild WT or Meantone on any piano for any kind of music is also OK! Reverse Well is NEVER OK!

Opera Tenor, you don't need to show a video of your process, just your final result will be fine. Just keep in mind what I said above. I certainly don't want to be telling you that your temperament is really Reverse Well and not ET!


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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Bill, I reread your previous post. We have to remember this temperment starts on C and is limited to one octave.


Jeff,

You ought to know by now that for ET, it does not matter which note you start on! For the three CM3's in the F3-F4 octave to be judged as correct, there need to be the outside judge of F4-A4. That means that whatever kind of octave you ended up with for F3-F4, you have to tune A4 from A3 to the same kind of octave!

If that ultimately means that C4 does not fit with anything else you have going, then you have to either move it a little or move everything else! Don't worry! A-Fork tuners also run into the same problem.


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Originally Posted by OperaTenor
[...] I tune, you decide...



Foxy!



Please don't disappoint!

(Sorry, OT... I couldn't resist!)


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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by OperaTenor

This Friday, when I tune at the Shout House, I'll take my H2 with me and record my temperament, so you guys take a turn at me...

I believe I'm tempering my 4ths and 5ths less than what I heard in the recording, but I think I'm still ending up with acceptable beat rates in my 3rds and 6ths.

I tune, you decide...


I'll be very interested to hear the results! Doel, only if you want to...aural results are good enough.

Please play first all M3's F3-F4, slowly, legato but andante tempo, Then all M6's. Then all chromatic 4ths, then all chromatic 5ths, then all M3-M6, then "inside 3rd-outside 6th" (if you know what that is), then last but certainly not least, CM3's: F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4, then F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4, then G3-B3 and B3-D#4, then G#3-C4 and C4-E4.

The above will be enough without numeric analyses to determine if the results are a reasonable ET or not. This is what an exam "pre-screener" would do. Any person wishing to take the tuning exam should first be pre-screened to avoid wasting time and money on an exam and also to avoid the distress of failure but also save the examiners from having to tell an examinee that the exam is a failure.

Let me make it clear that despite the problems Jeff had in his demonstrations and despite the fact that they were all basically "pitch correction" attempts (as were mine), I still believe that all of his results would have passed a PTG tuning exam.

So, let's be fair with each other about all of this. We talk about ET as a "standard" but in the end, we should all know and keep in mind that an absolute state of perfection can never really happen. That applies to all aspects of piano preparation. The closer to perfection, the longer it will take and the more difficult it will be to make any improvement.

Personally, I believe that the very best sound for the piano is not actually found in a perfected ET. I have long held that opinion. The Quasi ET that I developed by default (as most other Quasi ET's were in the 19th Century), the so named, "ET via Marpurg" actually has a superior sound to a strict ET because it has more beat cancellation properties than a true ET can ever have. So, when I see the need for clarity versus key signature color, I choose it.

The above is my opinion, of course, but I am sticking solidly with it. My efforts to help people improve ET construction are primarily to help people wishing to pass the PTG tuning exam. Secondarily, however, to help technicians avoid the very easily made mistake of Reverse Well. RW does not make any piano or any music sound better, only worse. C Major should never be the worst sounding triad with B Major and D-flat Major sounding lovely! That is NOT a description of either ET or of Quasi Equal Temperament!

If everyone who reads this topic and the above statement can grasp it and get an idea in mind about key signatures, the music of this world from pianos will sound better because of it.

ET is OK! Quasi ET is OK! Mild WT or Meantone on any piano for any kind of music is also OK! Reverse Well is NEVER OK!

Opera Tenor, you don't need to show a video of your process, just your final result will be fine. Just keep in mind what I said above. I certainly don't want to be telling you that your temperament is really Reverse Well and not ET!


Dear Bill,

Thank you for giving me something of a protocol to follow for playback; it seemed to me like everyone here did something different, so I wasn't sure how to proceed.

Are you okay with it just being an audio recording (using my Zoom H2)? I suppose I could use my phone to make a video, but I want better sound quality.

I've never held that there is perfection in anything I do, with possible exception of being perfectly mediocre... Seriously, I don't expect to score exceptionally well, FWIW.

smile



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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted by OperaTenor
[...] I tune, you decide...



Foxy!



Please don't disappoint!

(Sorry, OT... I couldn't resist!)


Epic.



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Zoom H2 is often good enough to get across the idea of everything expressed in a performance, then uploaded to boxnet, in Pianist Corner Member Recordings. Do the best you can, OT! (Seriously, I'm rooting for you!)

Last edited by Cinnamonbear; 01/02/14 10:16 PM.

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Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Zoom H2 is often good enough to get across the idea of everything expressed in a performance, then uploaded to boxnet, in Pianist Corner Member Recordings. Do the best you can, OT! (Seriously, I'm rooting for you!)


I have my own hosting site. I'll just post it from there.

I'm not worried. My customers - and I have some pretty prestigious ones here in Sandy Eggo - are pleased with my work.

But, thank you! smile



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Originally Posted by OperaTenor
Originally Posted by Cinnamonbear
Zoom H2 is often good enough to get across the idea of everything expressed in a performance, then uploaded to boxnet, in Pianist Corner Member Recordings. Do the best you can, OT! (Seriously, I'm rooting for you!)


I have my own hosting site. I'll just post it from there.

I'm not worried. My customers - and I have some pretty prestigious ones here in Sandy Eggo - are pleased with my work.

But, thank you! smile



Prestigiousness means nothing to me. (I heard the Schubert, remember?) Lets hear a fresh temperament in all of its Foxydigiousness! And, you're welcome!


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BTW, Bill, I'm sorry, I don't know what is meant by "inside 3rd-outside 6th."



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You, as a piano tuner, can do whatever you like, and create whatever temperment makes you happy. GO WILD. Only thng that matters to me is a satisified, repeat customer.


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Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
You, as a piano tuner, can do whatever you like, and create whatever temperment makes you happy. GO WILD. Only thng that matters to me is a satisified, repeat customer.


Gary, you know that, and i know that, but we're having a little fun here... wink



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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by Mark Davis


P.S I think that with tuning ET, particularly to get smooth progressing M3's and M6's, the 4ths and 5ths may be slightly compromised in order to achieve this end.


This statement is self contradictory. It is the description of Quasi Equal Temperament, not ET (sorry to say).

Otherwise, you had good advice and Kent Swafford's advice is good, generally speaking. However, I still believe that some sequences are less prone in particular to cumulative error than the Braide White (or similar) sequence. It is only logical that if you avoid tuning from an unproven note, you cannot so easily skew the temperament one way or the other (well or reverse well).

CM3's remain the most powerful diagnostic tool in sorting out ET error.


I thought that that statement would be picked on, however I do not think that it is self contradictory. Let me clarify, one may need to tune ones 5ths slightly narrower than one would like, and the 4ths faster than one thinks. Once one has gone through the temperament sequence at least once, then one has the opportunity to refine, if one needs to. Tuning the temperament like this, leaves one with a bit of wiggle room to adjust if necessary.

Maybe Kent says it better than I. No, not maybe, he does.

“The secret to perfection in tunings is to give up trying for perfection.”

Elaboration — More correctly one might say that the secret to accomplishing the most nearly perfect tunings is NOT to try to get the beat rate checks to work out completely perfectly. The final refinement of a tuning is a fundamentally different type of activity than tuning through a temperament sequence in the first place. When tuning a temperament sequence, one must impose absolute beat rates, for example, 7 beats per second expanded in the F3-A3 major 3rd. However, no temperament sequence produces perfect results. At some point it is necessary to refine a temperament and breakaway from the absolute beat rates of a temperament sequence. The distinguishing characteristic of equal temperament is the smooth progression of beat rates.

Last edited by Mark Davis; 01/03/14 05:18 AM. Reason: added to post

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Originally Posted by OperaTenor


Dear Bill,

Thank you for giving me something of a protocol to follow for playback; it seemed to me like everyone here did something different, so I wasn't sure how to proceed.

Are you okay with it just being an audio recording (using my Zoom H2)? I suppose I could use my phone to make a video, but I want better sound quality.

I've never held that there is perfection in anything I do, with possible exception of being perfectly mediocre... Seriously, I don't expect to score exceptionally well, FWIW.

smile



Tenor,

What I told you is what a master tuning committee would do with a temperament before anyone touched anything. Their task is to take what was put on a piano as a preliminary tuning (these days, most often an ETD calculated tuning or even a previous master tuning on the same make and model piano).

If you start like that with what should already be very good, you don't just start "improving" intervals haphazardly because that could only compound errors, not eliminate them. Perhaps I have given you an idea of how you might improve your own temperaments.

It would be a good idea to read carefully the material by Kent Swafford that Mark R. posted. Theoretically, it should not matter which note a temperament starts with or which sequence is used. However, I don't agree with the idea that "temperament sequences are over rated". There certainly are some sequences which are more efficient than others and there are some which are prone to cumulative and compound errors.

An audio recording is fine. I asked Jeff for a recording of him actually tuning the temperament because the issue was whether or not a sequence which started with CM3's avoided errors better than a 4ths & 5ths sequence. What you want to do, presumably, is show that what you do is a reasonable representation of ET and that it cannot be called Reverse Well.

Playing all of the intervals as I suggested will let us all hear them. The definition, as I understand it and take it, of ET is all intervals equally tempered. That means smoothly progressing SBI's and RBI's. Not, "Well, I could get all the 3rd's but I had to make some 5th's wobble to do it" or, "I could get all the 4th's & 5th's to sound really good but my 3rd's were a little uneven, must be the poor scaling or something...Yeah, the C Major sounds the worst but D-flat, B, A-flat and F# sound really good so that's still ET isn't it because I followed the directions in the book and that book never said anything about CM3's; where did you guys come up with that from...?"

In the end, what we should hear is M3's that progress evenly from bottom to top. M6's that progress evenly from bottom to top. All 4ths & 5ths sounding alike (not some pure and some wobbly). M3-M6 combinations all similar but slower/faster, "inside 3rd-outside 6th" combinations all virtually equal beating. If you don't know that combination, start with G3-B3 and F3-D4 and then move up chromatically.

Finally, the CM3's: F3-A3, A3-C#4, C#4-F4 should all progress by a small amount, so should F#3-A#3 and A#3-D4 and so should G3-B3 and B3-D#4.

If we all hear all of the above, then it would mean you really have ET and your temperament would pass a PTG tuning exam with a score of 100%.

Of course, a temperament does not have to be that perfect all of the time to be acceptable, not even for professional use but it should at least approach that kind of description. With practice, however, any technician can train him or herself to come very closely to that kind of description routinely.


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Originally Posted by Gary Fowler
You, as a piano tuner, can do whatever you like, and create whatever temperment makes you happy. GO WILD.


I have never tried the going wild approach and am not inclined to do so.


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Folks:

The only reason I de-tuned before starting the temperment sequence is avoid anyone saying, "Hey, you could tell where the note should have been before you adjusted it." I know this piano and I don't think dropping one string per note did much at all.

And after studying the analyses that Kees has graciously done, and considering that the tolerance for progressive M3s and M6s is +/-0.2 cents (although you might get away with up to 0.4 on a few notes...) I doubt if any of us tune as well as we think we do. Every test seems to be only good to +/-0.5 cents. wink

But I don't mind being under the microscope. Criticism, both positive and negative, can be useful.


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All:

What probably got me is, when listening to the various tests, was looking for one or two notes that needed adjustment to make things better. In this case it was three (G,B & E) and all in the same direction. I wasn't really using the chromatic M3s for troubleshooting, I have learned doing so can lead to a "Marpurg error" where the M3s are progressive but there are problems with the M6s.

Now, as has been mentioned, if the temperment had been expanded it would have been a different story. The M3/M6 inside/outside test is a great one for finding complicated errors. After one and then another note, the BD# and then the CE would have been under this spotlight.

I keep thinking about Kent Swafford's "Any Which Way" idea. I don't see how it would have helped in this situation. The idea is to check a note against many intervals and see if there is agreement in which way it should be moved. And if there is not agreement, go with the majority. Same with grading the PTG exam, as I understand it. Like in this case, move the B down. But then GB will be too slow AND BE will be too wide AND F#B will be not wide enough. Get three things worse to make one thing better? Nope. Ok, then move D# up. But then F#D# is too fast AND G#D# is too slow AND A#D# is too fast. Again, 3 against 1. Nope.

Funny thing is, my instinctual beatrate memory of CE was giving me alarm bells, not the intricate tests, and I "silenced the alarm". And remember this is what raised Bill's hackles, too. Not that it was RW, but that CE was 1 bps too fast.

But sure, there were errors that should have been spotted and corrected. I am enjoying looking at the different possibilities. Thanks, Folks! smile


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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Folks:

The only reason I de-tuned before starting the temperment sequence is avoid anyone saying, "Hey, you could tell where the note should have been before you adjusted it." I know this piano and I don't think dropping one string per note did much at all.

And after studying the analyses that Kees has graciously done, and considering that the tolerance for progressive M3s and M6s is +/-0.2 cents (although you might get away with up to 0.4 on a few notes...) I doubt if any of us tune as well as we think we do. Every test seems to be only good to +/-0.5 cents. wink



Yes, sure, fair enough and agreed.

Well done to you Jeff, and all of the best.


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Originally Posted by Bill Bremmer RPT
Originally Posted by UnrightTooner

Bill, I reread your previous post. We have to remember this temperment starts on C and is limited to one octave.


Jeff,

You ought to know by now that for ET, it does not matter which note you start on! For the three CM3's in the F3-F4 octave to be judged as correct, there need to be the outside judge of F4-A4. That means that whatever kind of octave you ended up with for F3-F4, you have to tune A4 from A3 to the same kind of octave!

If that ultimately means that C4 does not fit with anything else you have going, then you have to either move it a little or move everything else! Don't worry! A-Fork tuners also run into the same problem.


I have moved my starting note on occasion to try to improve the temperment. It has never been for the better. It just confuses the issue more. I no longer even consider it. I do check the starting note sometimes, though. They can slip.


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Originally Posted by OperaTenor
BTW, Bill, I'm sorry, I don't know what is meant by "inside 3rd-outside 6th."



Bump for Bill, in case he missed this.

smile



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