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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
It is very difficult for a pianist to discern what technical elements they like or dislike in a given piano they dislike. The relation between the feel and the sound is of tremendous import. Having the requisite technical and musical experience and judgement to reliably sort out what is doing what and why is rare.

Being rare is irrelevant. What any skilled pianist can immediately ascertain is whether it is a suitable action, or not. If Seeker's wife prefers a wood action, so be it.

Period


Marty in Minnesota

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I agree with Marty. A skilled pianist will know immediately if the action is right. The hands are very sensitive and the brain and fast computer. If that pianist knows a little technical information about the workings and regulation of an action, then he or she could probably tell you exactly what needs to be done or at least come pretty close.


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Techs may advise on technical matters, but the pianist is the ultimate arbiter on everything*.


[*That is, with respect to what the pianist is prepared to pay for. Where lack of agreement exists, the tech is at liberty to ask the pianist to take his or her business elsewhere; the pianist is free to do the same.]

Last edited by bkw58; 12/03/13 03:50 PM. Reason: *addition

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I do not care what material the action parts are made of, I just do not care for the outlandish claims made for them. I do not think I could pick them out in a blind test. On the other hand, I have never heard other hammers that sound like Steinway hammers prepared well. Those I can hear.


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Mmmmm.....good point. I would be reluctant to put carbon fiber into a 100+ year old instrument. I would also stick with Steinway hammers provided the person I was working with had extensive experience in their preparation. Done correctly, they are a marvelous hammer in an American Steinway.


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The carbon fiber and neutral l action parts are not as chocking I was just expecting . However there is a sort of damping in the action function tactile return that may be a concern for a certain type of pianist or even some music, while it seem to change the "organic feel" of usual piano parts (with all their drawbacks)

One may find it comfortable yo have much power at hand, (felt even at slow regime) I have a customer that is happy with an excellent piano, that one being extremely forgiving for bad touch.
Since the 3 years she own that piano, she made absolutely no progress in touch and do not master tone more than when she had a vertical.

And the piano in question have wooden shanks, that is more the kind that you can play hard and naughty, and the piano will give a round tone.

Not for the best pianists as the tonal palette is reduced.
Then, there are less pianists today that really get the most of pianos... And less pianos that allows for that enlarged nuances.

When playing I feel the parts does not need to be so much "energized" than wooden parts.


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Ed, yep! That's exactly what it is - Rainsong! I was quite impressed with it I have to say. It played quite well, and being all CF, it was surprising in tone. I spent many years in the aerospace field, and I still dabble in it from time to time, so I am quite familiar with CF from an aerospace perspective. It's been used for decades in that field due to its characteristics, and in fact rotor blades on a helicopter are usually made of it, so there you have it in terms of durability. We plan on going to a M&H dealer next week so she can try out the CF action on a CC. I will let ya'll know how that turns out wink

From a "keep it authentic Steinway" standpoint, I do understand this and perhaps on an antique Steinway that's what should be done. But, at the same time, I ponder what the makers 50-100 years ago would've thought and would they not have taken advantage of technological breakthroughs such as carbon fiber? I'm sure M&H's Crown Retention System raised some eyebrows back in its day too - yet from what I understand, it has proven itself quite worthy and they still put them in their grands today.

What do you guys think of that system? Have you experienced a 90-100 year old M&H where the case and crown were in perfect condition due to the crown system? Does it seem to do its job as intended?

Thanks again guys! Most fascinating discussions!

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I play a 90 year old Mason & Hamlin with an original soundboard all the time. It sounds fine, but then, so does the slightly older Steinway next to it. Whether they have "crown" or not is of no interest to me. You cannot hear crown, and often enough, you cannot see it, either.


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There was a long thread in this forum about the crown in Mason & Hamlin pianos two or three months ago. If anything the conclusion was that the massive rim was the key element.


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Boy, it must be nice not having to worry about humidity
fluctuations:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guit...-cutaway-acoustic-electric-guitar/423673

Ed said, "Richard Dain has a nearly all carbon piano in England at Hurstwood Studios. Some experimenting has been and I am sure will continue with carbon fiber piano applications."

So is even the sound board carbon fiber? No more cracking. I'd like to
try it out....


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Check out Steingraeber Phoenix and Hurstwood Farm Pianos.

It's really not new.


Marty in Minnesota

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Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Check out Steingraeber Phoenix and Hurstwood Farm Pianos.

It's really not new.


Awesome:

http://steingraeberpianos.com/news/phoenix.html

I'd like to try one out....but they're heck expensive,
right?

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Oooooooooooooh Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

But it's free to try out at a dealership!


Marty in Minnesota

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I have an 86 yr old M&H BB with its original soundboard and bridges, with the Wapin bridge modification, not sure about crown etc, and it sounds like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f5...erview&list=UUabnplkSdNakIT6YdrzDacw

Link to just the sound-file: https://app.box.com/shared/static/dd59x0mn82jrfe0ow5sd.mp3

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Originally Posted by Grandpianoman
I have an 86 yr old M&H BB with its original soundboard and bridges, with the Wapin bridge modification, not sure about crown etc, and it sounds like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f5...erview&list=UUabnplkSdNakIT6YdrzDacw

Link to just the sound-file: https://app.box.com/shared/static/dd59x0mn82jrfe0ow5sd.mp3


Beautiful playing! No credits to the performer?

Funny thing about videos: You've gotta have a great instrument, a great player, and great recording
technique if you want something good to come out the other
end. You've got all 3 here....

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Hello Paul.....thanks!........I tend to forget that I have been posting on here since 2007, lots of recordings of this piano smile....and that the new people would not necessarily know that. smile

What you are hearing is the LX playback system installed in my piano, www.live-performance.com The selection "Reflections" was written and performed by a well known professional jazz pianist.

Here is a classical example I recorded a few years ago. Played by a professional pianist, and played back on the LX.


Rachmaninoff Prelude
https://app.box.com/shared/static/7ufv7qofvmbhfln1x5i8.mp3


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Some of the comments regarding what is appropriate work and materials to use on a piano like the OP's have a certain logic to them. Keep it like "original intent" for example.

The original intent of a Steinway concert grand is to be a magnificent instrument. If you stay true to the ethic of using whatever materials, techniques and methods get you to that goal-I think that has authenticity. This include durability.

As to the comments that most pianists would know immediately if they like the action-I agree. BUT very few pianists would know why and even fewer have the experience to properly determine how suitable a given part or technical regime is.

I would advise pianists who hire piano technicians to limit your specifications to how the piano should sound and feel and how durable those qualities are. Then let the technician decide what will meet your standards and let the technician be responsible for the outcome.

If you tell them to only use brand X parts and you are unhappy with the result-the technician can say "I put the parts in that you asked for" and "that is the way these parts are supposed to work".


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There are those with more experience than I that will say that there has yet to be any tangible evidence regarding the validity of the M&H "Tension Resonator."


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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
Some of the comments regarding what is appropriate work and materials to use on a piano like the OP's have a certain logic to them. Keep it like "original intent" for example.

The original intent of a Steinway concert grand is to be a magnificent instrument. If you stay true to the ethic of using whatever materials, techniques and methods get you to that goal-I think that has authenticity. This include durability.

As to the comments that most pianists would know immediately if they like the action-I agree. BUT very few pianists would know why and even fewer have the experience to properly determine how suitable a given part or technical regime is.

I would advise pianists who hire piano technicians to limit your specifications to how the piano should sound and feel and how durable those qualities are. Then let the technician decide what will meet your standards and let the technician be responsible for the outcome.

If you tell them to only use brand X parts and you are unhappy with the result-the technician can say "I put the parts in that you asked for" and "that is the way these parts are supposed to work".


Very well said, Ed. Thank you! To me, pianists and pilots are very similar. They both know how to fly the machine, but they typically only have a general knowledge as to why the machine flies. When it comes to the nuts and bolts of the machine, they leave that work up to the technicians to deal with. Which is why I've taken on the task of researching the rebuild process, who should do it, and what materials are out there that might/might not make the cut wink While I'm not a piano tech of any form, I am a "tech" and my wife knows how tenacious I can be when it comes to researching technical details, which is part of my professional career, and what will ultimately be best for her and for her piano.

Without you guys, this task would be impossible so I thank you all again for your expertise, insight, and viewpoints!


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Originally Posted by Paul678
Originally Posted by Minnesota Marty
Check out Steingraeber Phoenix and Hurstwood Farm Pianos.

It's really not new.


Awesome:

http://steingraeberpianos.com/news/phoenix.html

I'd like to try one out....but they're heck expensive,
right?


What the heck??? Never knew something like this existed! Wow.... that piano looks amazing. Wonder if it sounds as good as it looks.

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