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Hi, Newbie here....

Being a complete novice and having a terrible memory, is it unreasonable to think that I can still learn the keyboard even if once I have practised something in the book to the point where it sounds reasonable, that I don't seem to retain the note sequences a couple of weeks later?

If you aren't playing a piece every day, it will fade from your memory. You can maintain it somewhat by playing it a couple of times per week, but you would need to do it every day if you wanted to keep it performable.

So it's perfectly normal that by learning a piece and then moving on, you will forget how to play it, even with the book right in front of you if not reviewed for a few weeks.

Does that answer your question?

Absolutely normal.

A few points to note. The first is that most of us don't memorize "deeply" enough; we use what is commonly thought of as muscle memory - the fingers know where to go and they play it. Although necessary for fast passages, it is the least reliable and soonest lost form of memory.

Second, for most of us, keeping everything we learn in our heads is more than we can do and more than we want to do. Which is why I switched from spending time reviewing older repertoire to spending time learning how to read better. Not just playing from first sight, but playing pieces I had previously memorized. Now I can play a few pieces that had slipped from memory when reading them - some better than when I first memorized them (because my technical skills have improved.)

If you learn to read music as you play you do not have to "retain" the note sequences.

Just take it slowly, and learn to read music as you play. I know, it is easier to memorize the piece so you can look at the keyboard as you play. Then, you run into the problem you are describing.

Just set your course for learning to read music as you play. Five years from now you will be so glad you did. Otherwise, five years from now you may still be lamenting about how you can't remember the pieces you have perfected.

Learn to read music as you play.

Now ... you are going to get all sorts of advice about how to deal with this issue and perhaps endless examples of great pianists who never learned to read music.

My advice ?

Take it slowly and learn to read music while you play. Everything becomes much easier once you have developed that skill.

Take it slowly. There is no rush. You have years.

And, it will take years.

Wow, you guys are awesome, three replies before I finished my cup of tea!

I'm going to take onboard what you have all suggest and stop trying to memorize whole song, but instead to play it as I read it. I'm sure I will be slow at first, but it seems like learning to do this now, will make things easier later.

Regards.

Welcome to PW, Randalthor!

Do not "try" to memorize pieces. The question is if your brain can memorize with ease or not. As far as I know some of us can memorize naturally, others don't. But, don't worry, everyone can play

Hey Carlos,

Thanks man, its always bewildering trying to start a new hobby. there's so much one doesn't know that its hard to find any good resources, like this site, to share with others, and get some sound advice. Which by the way is very much appreciated :-)

I hope to be contributing back in some way soon.

Regards.

Randalthor, in my case this hobby has become something very serious - thank goodness! -. I am very new to this "hobby" but I try to work with passion and dedication. And the simple fact that I don't have a teacher leads me to check this site daily. PW is an excellent community and they (we) love to read the stories of each other.

Just for interest, how long will take an average person to read and play?

I took piano 18 months ago and only at the beginning of this year that I started learning to read.

It is really a slow process for me and I wonder whether I will ever be able to read and play at ease one day.

We can take any novel book of interest and read it and enjoy it. Will it ever happen with music and paino playing?

As to your specific query - as others having correctly mentioned - it's completely normal, however, I would encourage one to move away from the concept of either having or not having a "good memory" as soon as possible as I don't think the observable evidence supports human memory working as such - I mean, you have a memory right? I'm betting several types in fact - and secondly, a misplaced understanding of how human memory works will never allow one to ask the correct questions of themselves to improve.

Have you been formally tested? Long story short, years ago I had my IQ and memory tested (for health reasons related to school) and everything came back: AVERAGE! But I did not resign myself to such a judgement and instead charged forward and read about human memory. I armed myself with tools sitting right in the plain sight (or the library shelf as the case may be). No secrets. No magic. No resignation to my own (empirically proven) mediocrity.

Today, I routinely memorize quite large works with what my friends would characterize as ease. Using mnemonics can be quite fun for a creative person. I recently memorized 101 architectural design tricks (another long story) in a couple of weeks. I maybe spent 2-3 min a day to get them all in there. Great fun getting tested by an architecturally inclined friend of mine and I wouldn't even remotely call the (futile) exercise a "mental strain" or "a lot of effort".

So the differential really is self-motivation and effort; practice and patience. And I'm reasonable about the whole thing; I know I will slowly lose my 101 tips if I don't practice them.

Welcome to PW and good luck!

100% agree (and several others said the same)

I'd just like to add that, the more theory you know, the easier it is to keep something in your memory. So, if you're trying to expand your ability to remember something, theory is a great way to start.

Improvisation can also help: the more you are able to improvise on a theme/progression, the easier you will be able to remember that theme/progression.

So, for example, the US National Anthem. I play it in Bb, and I know the progression of the chords, so with a runthrough or two, I can play it fluently. This, of course, using a combination of my knowledge of theory and my ability to improvise.

Hope this helps in addition to the great responses you've already gotten.

From my experience, we can read and play from beginning. If you start a course book such as Alfred’ Basic Adult Book 1, you can read and play the first pieces without looking at your hand, then progress…

At the moment, I can read and play a piece under my level immediately. If I want to play a piece higher than my level, I have to memorize line by line to play it.

There is no average as far as piano is concerned, because a variety of aptitudes go into playing piano.

Each piano player has to apply their personal mix of aptitudes, along with a lot of hard work, to become proficient pianists. And you can become a proficient pianist, even if you are weak in certain aptitudes.

Among the aptitudes:

* great absolute pitch
* great relative pitch
* facility for reading
* great physical control
* great physical agility
* good improvisational facility
* ability to quickly understand theory
* great organization applied to practice discipline
* stubbornness

Many great pianists struggled with reading--Dave Brubeck wasn't a reader when he was trying to get his music degree. Saint-Saens, on the other hand was supposedly a phenomenal reader.

With such variability, there's no way to definitively provide guidelines as to how long learning to read may take. What is important is knowing "how important is the skill of reading to letting you be the kind of musician you want to be?" and "what are good ways to practice reading?"

If you deem it important and know the techniques, then all that is missing is elbow grease. But you don't get the luxury of a timetable. It takes as long as it takes, because your inner musician is an individual, not factory-made.

I think there is more to just memory going on here - I am a complete novice also but with so much sudden acceleration in learning is it any wonder that some notation doesn't find its way into the long term memory. My fingers seem to forget where to go on occasions but as they are stretching and changing it would be reasonable to expect that my spacial perception is also effected.

Not unreasonable; quite normal.

As others have indicated ... there is absolutely no way of predicting how long anything associated with playing piano will take.

But I can tell you this ... If you do not quit, and you keep practicing, someday you will be amazed at how well you can play. That really is all there is to it.

Lessons help also.


Don't Quit ... Just keep going ... It gets easier.

I would counsel caution against advice to just "keep practicing". Practice can become impotent without a broader developed set of musical tools. Certainly the only thing which saves the above post from this harsh judgement is the amendment that "lessons help". But a teacher is going to say roughly the same thing. Some of this will hinge on the OP's own goals but Whizbang has posted some excellent suggestions above which are closer to my own feelings on the matter. Self-motivation is an asset that can take one far, but it must be matched with a certain amount of self-criticism and self-reflection to truly excel (especially if learning without the benefit of a teacher). The counter-point to this is just bashing the piece into one's fingers through rote practice. This has two main pitfalls as I see it; 1) the musicality is often squeezed out of the piece in such cases and 2) one is always weighted down from learning as much of the (super amazingly rich) piano literature as they wish because of poor practice habits. Again, much of this will depend on the player's own goals so this is probably far enough on this tangent for tonight.

Awesome advice guys, I'm feeling confident that if I learn to read the notes on the page, ideally one or two ahead of what my fingers are doing, and pay attention to timing etc, then this should stand me in good stead.

Also should I try avoid looking at my hands, and go by touch alone? I feel like a nodding dog at the moment, look at page, say note, look at fingers, say note, play, look at page... lol

Regards.

Looking at hands takes the focus off thinking about the music and causes an inevitable pause. Therefore it is to be avoided, although I find it easier said than done

You should only look at your hands in these instances:

-If you have the music memorized
-If your hands need to jump to a new position on the keyboard

Any other reason and it's a crutch and will cause issues in your playing (those pauses!). You may want t take a scarf and cover up your hands while playing so every time you look down you remember how pointless it is to do so. It's kind of a tough habit to break, but you will get better with time and not need the scarf at all.