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Originally Posted by pianogirl1978
She is my only student so far at the music studio I just started teaching at. So I honestly dread having to drive there just for her lesson....It feels very institutional.


I'm sure this malaise gets communicated to the adult student - i.e., to the lady who appears so dreary and is assumed will quit piano lessons soon. Some of the problems in this vignette may have nothing to do with teaching adults.

Last edited by Peter K. Mose; 12/21/12 03:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by rocket88
There is a huge amount of practice and skill required to "just" play cocktail piano or in a trio in a club.


Amen. There's a lot of skill involved just to do it well at retirement/assisted living/nursing homes. The better I get the more I wonder how I got away with it even a year ago.

The seniors I play for dance and sing to what I play, and I have about 2 hours worth of repertoire, but there's no way I could take requests on the spot, or interact with the audience while I play. Much less guarantee an enjoyable (tho not flawless) play on every tune.

It's a big job, and those who are good enough to do it professionally are highly skilled, and I have a lot of respect for them.

Cathy


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For adult and teenager, I have a " FFAT" program for them.

It is "flexible, floating, adult, teenager program"
After the first free interview, I put them into this category right away. This means: they are not obligate to the one month tuition fee, they are not responsible to come to piano lesson every week or every other week. They do not have a permanent fixed schedule such as every Friday at 5pm etc....

They only schedule online on my website when they "like" to come to piano lesson. They will pay cash when they arrive only for that lesson, no future commitment.

This is how I pre-screen the adult, I pre-screen them every single lesson, not only at the first free interview. If they are not practice, they won't go online to sign up for one single lesson.

I am pretty happy with this method for now, I have about 10 adults and teenagers that are doing this, some come to piano lesson every week, some every month, some every three months and some once a year. It is totally up to them and I make sure that they know whenever they need me, I am here waiting for them. I also make sure that they know I do not want their money if they do not prepare for the lesson.

Of course, I will not include these piano tuition in my total budget when operating my business.

Also, I think, yes, paying tuition upfront for the whole year will make adult students come to piano lesson and make them commit to a year of lesson, but what is the motivation? Are they motivated by money or motivated by desire to learn?

Last edited by ezpiano.org; 12/21/12 03:29 PM.

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Originally Posted by TimR
Possibly few though have given much thought to how an adult learner is different and how to customize instruction for one. Adults learn more slowly and with different mechanisms.

I think that should be emphasized. No matter how dedicated the student and skilled the teacher, adult progress will be slower. There are probably exceptions, I haven't seen any though. Both must expect this and not get frustrated.


Tim R, In my experience, adults actually can learn faster than children, it is just that I find they are unmotivated or don't have the time needed or an parent making them practice. As far as finger dexterity, learning the staff, I think they actually learn this part faster than children. So if they would put the practice time in, they would be surprised how well they could play in a short amount of time. I guess that is what frustrates me the most is that they are capable, but don't apply themselves and then get discouraged. A lot of my past adult students were child students who took lessons for one year, barely learned anything and now want to try it again, but I think they expect the same outcome they had the first time and set themselves up to fail. I wasn't a psychology major, but it make sense. Not sure if I am making any sense to anyone. smile

Last edited by pianogirl1978; 12/21/12 03:29 PM.

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I guess that we've got a couple of different things. There are adults who want to work seriously, and adults who haven't thought things through and are going on a vague impulse. There are adults who want to work seriously but don't know what that means. There are teachers who have different approaches and attitudes toward teaching adults.

Imho, these should get sorted out at the start of lessons and maybe ongoing from time to time afterward. So now how is this brought about, and what is each person's role?

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In my experience, adults actually can learn faster than children, it is just that I find they are unmotivated or don't have the time needed or an parent making them practice. As far as finger dexterity, learning the staff, I think they actually learn this part faster than children.

Yes and no. We can get concepts intellectually faster than children, but we can tend to be "in our heads" too much - the direct connection isn't there in terms of getting raw experience. I was given a huge insight a few years ago that learning can and maybe should start in the body and senses, and then to the brain, but we do the reverse.

Quote
I guess that is what frustrates me the most is that they are capable, but don't apply themselves and then get discouraged. A lot of my past adult students were child students who took lessons for one year, barely learned anything and now want to try it again, but I think they expect the same outcome they had the first time and set themselves up to fail.

They will also have a set pattern of "how we work with a teacher - how we approach pieces - how we practice" and so will tend to do the same as before. How do you break through that.

Another thing is that when we do math homework we are supposed to bring in a perfect paper, and mistakes are signs of "failure". Learning to play music involves skills that must be developed, and a teacher looks for things to be developed. So while the teacher says to herself, "Aha, more wrist motion - we can work with that - fantastic!" the student thinks, "I failed at wrist motion." Knowing that weaknesses and even mistakes are ok and even part of the process can be a huge breakthrough.

Almost a decade ago when studying another instrument I "buddied" with a student overseas. She was trying to play beautifully, and was so anxious to do it right that it fell apart in front of her teacher, and then she stayed fallen apart. One day we learned that if a teacher is teaching "playing the right notes with right fingering", then this is what the teacher is looking for, and the piece is only a vehicle for that. My friend went "Is that all?" In the next lesson she focused on that "one thing" her teacher was looking for, and her playing stayed solid. Sometimes it can be a small thing like that.

But I agree with everyone that attitude is attitude. If it's not there, then this is the student's responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Piano Again
John, I think the issue may be that the students often don't know enough to be able to ask the question. The whole piano/music thing is a mystery to them. They know only that there's something about playing the piano that is appealing. They come to their lessons wanting to be taught, and they don't know exactly what that entails. The teacher needs to frame it in some way that makes sense.
I'm sure you're correct. But that doesn't negate the student's responsibility for finding out. But, FWIW, I've noticed this attitude in many aspects of society, and it seems to be growing (the buyer not knowing, and apparently, not caring enough to be concerned before becoming engaged). There's a show on HGTV (for non-USA forum members, Home and Garden Television, it's a separate channel). They do a show where a couple or individual is moving to a new location and is house hunting. This is both in the USA and Canada, and a separate show, for couples/families relocating from one country to another. My wife & I watch this fairly regularly, because we enjoy seeing the architecture, but we are totally blown away by the immature, shallow approach of the buyers. "Oh, I don't like this house, the ceilings are too high/low, the bathroom is the wrong color, etc., etc. Never once have they examined the foundation, checked the construction quality, asked substantive questions about covenants, local restrictions, etc. I could go on. Everything is cosmetic. I bring up this example because a prudent person, if they're about to commit to $300,000 in principle, and another $300,000 in interest over the mortgage's life, should certainly be concerned with fundamentals first and foremost. Call me old school, but not to think through any major commitment seems rather juvenile, not adult, to me.


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Originally Posted by A Rebours
Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
I now use prescreening to discourage adults from taking lessons, unless they are dead serious and in the real world, few seem to be.

Hi, John,

I am curious to know what pre-screening things you do to identify adult students who are serious (or not serious) about learning the piano and what things you do to discourage adults.

How do you know for sure if you are passing up some adult who really is serous about learning but who might not articulate clearly to you what they see as their goals?

Short answer, I ask them leading questions, such as: Why do you want to learn? What is your estimate of the amount of time you'll have to commit? If I told you that you'll need to put in 5 hours a week, 48 weeks a year, for the next 6 to 8 years, do you honestly believe you could make that commitment to yourself and to me? Would you be willing now, before you begin lessons, to purchase a quality piano for use in your studies?

To answer your second question, I don't know. My suspicion is that if they're truly serious, they'll continue to badger teachers until they find one.


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Originally Posted by Bob Newbie
I'd be happy just playing cocktail piano in a restaurant/club or in a trio..I'm retired so it'd be more a fun thing..

I figure it takes a newbie between 1,500 and 2,000 hours of purposeful practice, with good instruction, of course, to become really fluid at playing off of lead sheets, with a decent accompaniment. Other teachers may have other experiences with this. Good luck with your endeavors.


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KS, I was and am thinking in a different direction than you are, which is why I earlier stated that you made several good points. My impression, perhaps incorrectly, was that the OP was looking for more of, "I use this method, I teach in this order, etc." To me, it's a given that you'll coach students of any age, in practice techniques. How else would they learn? The other implication I got from the OP's questions were how to avoid the proverbial, "I bit off more than I can chew," we get too often from adult students. Thus the responses on how to avoid taking them as students in the first place. Make sense?


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Originally Posted by keystring
I guess that we've got a couple of different things. There are adults who want to work seriously, and adults who haven't thought things through and are going on a vague impulse. There are adults who want to work seriously but don't know what that means. There are teachers who have different approaches and attitudes toward teaching adults.........

Great post. The adult students on this forum are, without a doubt, the type of adult student most of us crave. Unfortunately, most of us have to deal with the other 99%. And adults encompass a vast age range, which dictates motor skills and maturity. They also have a broad background of experiences - from complete beginner to those picking up where they left off after graduating HS or even college. Future, their repertoire expectations differ widely from that of most elementary students. A one solution fits all approach is not very useful. And from my personal observations, most full-time teachers have pretty much written off adult students because of the problems encountered.


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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
To me, it's a given that you'll coach students of any age, in practice techniques.

It would be nice if all teachers thought as you did, but I received essentially no coaching in practice techniques at all during my 15 months of lessons.


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Originally Posted by PianoStudent88
Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
To me, it's a given that you'll coach students of any age, in practice techniques.

It would be nice if all teachers thought as you did, but I received essentially no coaching in practice techniques at all during my 15 months of lessons.

Give 'em the boot.


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Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
For adult and teenager, I have a " FFAT" program for them.

It is "flexible, floating, adult, teenager program"
After the first free interview, I put them into this category right away. This means: they are not obligate to the one month tuition fee, they are not responsible to come to piano lesson every week or every other week. They do not have a permanent fixed schedule such as every Friday at 5pm etc....

They only schedule online on my website when they "like" to come to piano lesson. They will pay cash when they arrive only for that lesson, no future commitment.

This is how I pre-screen the adult, I pre-screen them every single lesson, not only at the first free interview. If they are not practice, they won't go online to sign up for one single lesson.

I am pretty happy with this method for now, I have about 10 adults and teenagers that are doing this, some come to piano lesson every week, some every month, some every three months and some once a year. It is totally up to them and I make sure that they know whenever they need me, I am here waiting for them. I also make sure that they know I do not want their money if they do not prepare for the lesson.

Of course, I will not include these piano tuition in my total budget when operating my business.

Also, I think, yes, paying tuition upfront for the whole year will make adult students come to piano lesson and make them commit to a year of lesson, but what is the motivation? Are they motivated by money or motivated by desire to learn?


I think this is a fantastic business model, ezpiano. thumb I suspect there are a large number of potential students who crave this flexibility, and as it is all "extra" tuition for you, I suspect you benefit just as much from offering that flexibility. If I lived near you I'd be signing up for some sessions myself. smile

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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
Give 'em the boot.

Well, I have, although not in quite those terms. I had started to look for a different teacher, when I stopped lessons independently of that for financial reasons. So now I don't have any teacher at all.


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Originally Posted by Monica K.
Originally Posted by ezpiano.org
For adult and teenager, I have a " FFAT" program for them.

It is "flexible, floating, adult, teenager program"
After the first free interview, I put them into this category right away. This means: they are not obligate to the one month tuition fee, they are not responsible to come to piano lesson every week or every other week. They do not have a permanent fixed schedule such as every Friday at 5pm etc....

They only schedule online on my website when they "like" to come to piano lesson. They will pay cash when they arrive only for that lesson, no future commitment.

This is how I pre-screen the adult, I pre-screen them every single lesson, not only at the first free interview. If they are not practice, they won't go online to sign up for one single lesson.

I am pretty happy with this method for now, I have about 10 adults and teenagers that are doing this, some come to piano lesson every week, some every month, some every three months and some once a year. It is totally up to them and I make sure that they know whenever they need me, I am here waiting for them. I also make sure that they know I do not want their money if they do not prepare for the lesson.

Of course, I will not include these piano tuition in my total budget when operating my business.

Also, I think, yes, paying tuition upfront for the whole year will make adult students come to piano lesson and make them commit to a year of lesson, but what is the motivation? Are they motivated by money or motivated by desire to learn?


I think this is a fantastic business model, ezpiano. thumb I suspect there are a large number of potential students who crave this flexibility, and as it is all "extra" tuition for you, I suspect you benefit just as much from offering that flexibility. If I lived near you I'd be signing up for some sessions myself. smile


+1 thumb

I am working with my teacher on this basis and it's worked out pretty well. I do make progress, despite not being able to schedule as often as I'd like. However, I know that it's only a matter of months before I will be retiring, and will be able to add much more time to my piano studies. smile



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I love the international House Hunters show!! The first few times I watched for the scenery and architecture enjoyed seeing Ikea furnishings around the world, but now I tune in to be amazed by the overwhelming cluelessness and smallmindedness of the people.

What if HGTV did a show about piano lessons?!



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ezpiano, can students graduate out of FFAT and become regular students who practice regularly and follow instructions and show up weekly?



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Originally Posted by John v.d.Brook
The OP asks two questions:

[quote=pianogirl1978]Why do they sign up for piano lessons in the first place?

How do you all differ in your teaching with older students?



I always found the book by Howard Shanet to be absolutely no nonsense about it. On the back cover it said.

This book with teach you.

This book will not teach you.

In fact it reminds me of my time as an auditor. We clearly had on the audit report the T&C to shatter peoples' expectations of auditors.

Though TBH the suggestion of paying upfront for a year is simply untenable, 3 months maybe, but 12 months?

What happens when your teacher starts deteriorating like one of mine did?

TBH as above as a pianoworlder I'm rather addicted and know it is a long road. Even though I spend a lot of time at work. I always find time to play. I'm sure CASIO need to put a timer or an alarm clock on their next DP. I always think I'll just have a quick play 1-2 hours later realise I need to be up at 5pm the next day!

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"...Most of them did not succeed. Did their teachers fail them? In some cases clearly yes. There are no skill requirements for teaching..."

Only too true. And, right there, your pre-paid one solid year of tuition is out the window, John. Besides that, there is the question of personal temperament--- a hard piece of information to pry out of a prospective teacher in an intake interview, yet it can be make-or-break--- not to mention teaching style, which is even harder to get the truth about. And besides that, if you think back not so very far, we have had letters from students who complained about fetid odors in the studio, man-haters, a teacher who taught next to a school toilet where conversations unfit for young ears were conducted, horrible out-of-tune pianos, teachers who gossip about the students (sometimes here), teachers who drink more than is good for them, or whose mind and memory are failing them... to pick only the lowest (and not even the ripest) of the low-hanging fruit.

There are many reasons a student might have a snoot-full of a new teacher, long before a whole year is consumed. The teacher is on probation, as much as any other new employee is. Complain as you wish about the term 'employee;' there is enough truth to it that it might be well to contemplate it.

If you can get a new student to fork it over and sign the contract--- but wait--- we haven't heard anyone say they have! Except, maybe, John.

I was willing to pay quarterly, with a clear contract. How many teachers even bother with a contract that states their terms and rules? Few, in my experience. Yet I would swear that I was not such a bottom-feeder. If I was, I was paying a lot of money for it.


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I have a few observations - maybe that's too strong a word, maybe just idle musings about adult students. I am one and will be in some fashion as long as I have left. <g>

There may be a problem of relationship expectations unrelated to pedagogy or the difficulty of the process. A child sees a teacher as an authority, not too distant from a parent. A teacher sees a child as a child; in terms of relationships, it is likely a parent-child relationship, modeled on the only parent child relationship most teachers have ever had, their own. An adult sees a teacher as an expert, one whose advice is to be paid for, valued, questioned, and occasionally checked with a second opinion, like he does with his doctor, accountant, and auto mechanic. These expectations are rarely explicit and can clash without the reason being apparent.

Then there are some characteristics of the older learner. Yes, conceptually they may learn some things faster than a child, particularly if they bring a musical context from other study. Physically is another story.

The standard wisdom about adults is that they 1) have declines in memory 2) have declines in the ability to multitask 3) have reduced speed of information input (not depth nor volume, but speed) and 4) have decrements in timing/rhythm (the reason senior golfers can't compete - alignment at impact is completely dependent on timing).

To the extent any of these are true for any given individual, teaching will have to adjust to accommodate it.

For example, skills that are often taught in a package to children may need to be separated and learned individually because of the multitasking problem. Due to the speed at which memory fades, practice at least daily is probably mandatory. The speed of information flow means the teacher has to always be aware when she feeds information too fast for understanding.

Or not, of course, I'm just thinking out loud. I haven't skipped a daily practice session in many years, so I'm trying to implement my theories. hee, hee. I try for three sessions, hope for two, but never skip that one session. And I work with a metronome regularly, plus one month a year I do an hour a day with it, trying to keep rhythm from fading as I complete my 5th decade. Big 60 in a couple of months.


gotta go practice
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