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#1969044 10/05/12 10:08 AM
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I am looking for pieces that have a lot of 2 against 3 in them at the intermediate level. To give you an idea of my level, I have played or am presently working on the following-
Bach inventions no 1 and 8
Chopin Polonaise in g minor
Brahms Waltzes opus 15 for solo and nos 7 and 16 for 4 hands
Illynsky, Berceuse
Kuhlau, Sonatine in C major, all 3 movements.
Mendelssohn, Songs Without Words, Venetian Boat Song and Consolation
The only suggestion that I have received is Debussy, First Arabesque and I think that is too difficult at this point.
Thanks so much for any suggestions.
Judy


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Isn't this putting the cart before the horse? I like to tackle this as I find them rather than tackle them first and hope it works out when I find a piece that needs them.

It was the Debussy Arabesque I really got this with but you say that's a little beyond you.

Chopin Prelude Op. 28 no 4 (e minor) has one phrase where there is an eighth note triplet (in the right hand) against eighth notes in the left hand. That doesn't match your criteria of lots of them but it's what I can think of.


  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

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Anything by Philip Glass....

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Do many pieces call for 2 in the right hand with 3 in the left? I just tried tapping out a rhythm with 2 in the left hand and 3 in the right. That I can manage, but the other way around is a real challenge. I think it's because I'm used to playing out a steady beat accompaniment with my left hand, and the right hand is more accustomed to playing the melody, and I tend to think of the triplet as the melody and the duplet as an underlying beat.

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Hi Andy,
The reason I am looking for easier pieces with 2 against 3 is trying to prepare for the Brahms intermezzo in A that I would love to play some day. We are probably talking 5 or more years from now. My teacher said it is loaded with 2 against 3. It looks like you are playing pieces on about the same level as I am. Did you find the Debussy Arabesque very difficult?
Quarkomatic, my teacher suggested that I start now by tapping 2 against 3 and I actually find it easier to do the 3 in the left hand and the 2 in the right.
Thanks for the suggestion of Phillip Glass. what type of music does he write?
Thanks for the help.
Judy


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On the first part of Debussy's Clair de lune the 2 against 3 concept shows a lot.




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Originally Posted by zillybug
Hi Andy,
The reason I am looking for easier pieces with 2 against 3 is trying to prepare for the Brahms intermezzo in A that I would love to play some day. We are probably talking 5 or more years from now. My teacher said it is loaded with 2 against 3. It looks like you are playing pieces on about the same level as I am. Did you find the Debussy Arabesque very difficult?


My current pieces are "easier" ones before I tackle things at the hard end of my range. It took me a long time to get the Arabesque into a performance-ready state - about 6 months, though I had other pieces I was working on at the same time. So, yes, quite difficult.

If you are looking at what problems a piece you will tackle in 5 years time, I really wouldn't worry!!!


  • Debussy - Le Petit Nègre, L. 114
  • Haydn - Sonata in Gm, Hob. XVI/44

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I prefer to learn things in advance of when I will need them, so I applaud the OP's quest. Five years in advance? Great! That's five years to get really comfortable and familiar with 2 against 3.

When I only meet a technique for the first time in a piece I care about, I find it hard to be patient enough to learn the technique, because I want to be farther along faster in learning the piece. Give me exercises and preparatory pieces, every time.


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Well, I don't know if it is too hard for you or not, but Beethoven Sonata No. 1, Fourth Movement (Op. 2, No. 1) has a long passage that is 2 in the left and 3 in the right--starting on measure 26 and going to measure 33.

Maybe you could just work on that passage rather than the whole piece.

One other one I thought of is Brahms has a set called 51 Exercises. The first two of the 51 are studies in three vs. two. I think it's a fairly advanced exercise, but you could check it out.

Edit--correction, I think the Brahms exercises are actually 4 against 3. Still may be worth checking out. Same type of concept.

Last edited by Cookie74; 10/05/12 12:49 PM.

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Two excellent etudes for 2 against 3 are:

Chopin -- Trois Nouvelles Etudes, No.2
http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/e/ed/IMSLP00330-Chopin_-_3NEW_2.PDF


and

Saint-Saens - Study in rhythm op. 52, no. 4
http://conquest.imslp.info/files/im...LP09234-Saint-Saens_op052_Six_Etudes.pdf (this link is for the entire op. 52)

I recommend starting with the Saint-Saens -- the first 9 bars are pretty much a musical tutorial for playing 2 against 3.

Good luck!

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Thanks everyone for your suggestions. Lady Chen, The Saint Saens seems to be just what I was looking for. I printed it out and will bring it to my lesson on Monday.
Judy


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What about Mozart's piano concerto in C second movement? I think it is no. 21. It is all 2 against 3 from start to end. There may be some arrangements of it for piano solo.


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Tubbie,
Thanks for the suggestion but I don't think I am ready to play a piano concerto. I studied piano all through college except for the last semester of my senior year but then left it for many years. When you wait until you're in your 60's to decide to play again, the fingers don't work as easily as they did at 20. I am looking for fairly easy pieces to get the 2 against 3 so it is smooth. I have had it in some Czerny but would like an actual piece that I will spend quite a bit of time on.
Judy


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You might take a look at Mendelssohn Op 117. It is a song without words but not one of the song without words. I'm actually learning it now.

IMSLP - Album blatt Op 117


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Originally Posted by zillybug

Thanks for the suggestion of Phillip Glass. what type of music does he write?


Glass is a minimalist composer. I've been working on "Opening No. 1", which is one long paean to the 3-against-2. Mesmerizing, but hard to pull off without a major flub here or there.

[video:youtube]eDN8NzIGz-Y[/video]

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The notes for the second movement are very easy. The difficult bit is the 2-3 match and to play with singing tones. If you can play Bach inventions and whatnot, you can definately play the 2nd movement. Good luck!


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Thanks Stumbler,
I took a look at the Mendelssohn and it looks like something I could handle plus I really like Mendelssohn.


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Hi Monica,
Thanks for the info on Phillip Glass. I actually went to a concert last night where they played one of his pieces for cello and piano. They were recording a broadcast of the From the Top show and played some of Glass's music.

Tubbie,
I will take a look at the 2nd movement of the Mozart Concerto.
I just assumed a concerto would be very difficult.

Again thanks to everyone for all their suggestions.
Judy


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If the goal is to learn 2 vs 3, try it with scales; both hands, 3 octaves, one hand plays 2 to a beat, the other plays 3. If you can master this, you'll never have a problem with them.

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Jehalliday,
Thanks for the suggestion using scales. That sounds quite challenging but agree it would certainly make 2 against 3 easy if I can learn to do that.
Judy


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