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#1887444 04/27/12 11:43 AM
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I use a website called good-ear.com. I praticed intervals, chords, pitches etc. so i decided to try scales. I knew about minor, major, harmonic scales. But when i clicked on it all of these came up:Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian,
Mixolydian, Aeolean, Locrian, Melodic minor,
Dorian b9, Lydian augmented, Lydian b7, Mixolydian b13,
Locrian 9, Altered, Harmonic, minor, Locrian 13,
Ionian #5, Dorian #11, Mixolydian b9b13, Lydian #9
,Locrian b4bb7, Whole tone, HTWT, diminished, WTHT, diminished
maj pentatonic, min pentatonic,

Can someone help me understand these or link to a website that explains them

here's the actual page: http://www.good-ear.com/servlet/EarTrainer?chap=3&menu=9

I don't understand the do, re, mi stuff either found here : http://www.good-ear.com/servlet/EarTrainer?chap=6&menu=0

Thank you laugh


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Have a look here first, then get back with any questions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

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Originally Posted by JulianG123
I use a website called good-ear.com. I praticed intervals, chords, pitches etc. so i decided to try scales. I knew about minor, major, harmonic scales. But when i clicked on it all of these came up: Can someone help me understand these or link to a website that explains them . . .
I don't understand the do, re, mi stuff either found here

Hi Julian,

I know from one of your posts on my P.A.D.S. Disease thread that you are new to the Forums, so welcome again! Your question seems honest and sincere, and I shall attempt to help.

First of all, one of the most common MISTAKES newcomers can make is to randomly consult the internet! Generally it is ripe with MIS-information, and half-truths giving only part of answers to questions. While some of the information delivered this way is reliable, the novice has absolutely no way of filtering the correct from the completely wrong; or of resolving things that might be right in certain cases, but not in all, etc.

Your question covers a lot of ground, so let us start with what you say you already know: Please elaborate a little more on exactly WHAT you understand about “minor, major, harmonic scales.” For instance, do you know about key signatures? Are you familiar with the intervals between notes that make up the major scale (for one)? Can you distinguish between the three different “flavors” of minor scales, of which harmonic is one you mentioned? I am not attempting to sharp-shoot in any way - we simply need a better handle on your level of understanding before we can really help.

And if you Post And Disappear Syndrome on me, I’ll never answer another question!

Ed


In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.
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Originally Posted by LoPresti


And if you Post And Disappear Syndrome on me, I’ll never answer another question!

Ed

Ed,

I am adding your above "rule" to my "rules". PADS. I've had enough of this too.

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@Ed and Gary I won't PADS on you guys. =D

Ok, so basically I learned everything from playing, I know about major and minors scales from playing pieces. The minor scales i know about are relative minors such A minor being C majors relative. I misspoke when I said i knew about harmonics scales, after looking it up, it is all new to me.

I know that certain notes in a scale sound good "consonance" ( such as thirds, and sixths)
and others not so good "dissonance" ( 2nds, and 7th) and 5th and octaves are perfect.

I read a book about music theory, it was (dont laugh) "music theory for dummies." I found it fascinating but didn't really retain to much of it, and some of it was over my head. Unfornatualy i can't seem to find the book now that I'm actually trying to learn this stuff.

I'm not getting to far from the way I'm learning at the moment (been playing for 4 years)by just working on songs, I want to learn the science behind what makes the piece so magical. I also want to learn and understand the music not just memorize and repeat the music. So any help is greatly appreciated, Any book recommendations are appreciated as well.

Thanks smile



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You can't practice something before you know it, and Good-Ear has only practice. If you want to go that route, the Ricci Adams site has lessons teaching about the thing, and then practice of the things you have learned.
R. A.'s Music Theory

JulianG123 #1887811 04/28/12 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JulianG123
@Ed and Gary I won't PADS on you guys. . . . . I'm not getting to far from the way I'm learning at the moment (been playing for 4 years)by just working on songs, I want to learn the science behind what makes the piece so magical. I also want to learn and understand the music not just memorize and repeat the music. So any help is greatly appreciated, Any book recommendations are appreciated as well.

Julian,

Thanks for the additional info. With that, we have a better idea of where to start, and it sounds like you have a good beginning. At this time, I would not worry too much about all those "scales" you uncovered and spoke of in your original post. Those Greek named ones are called “modes”, primarily from ancient church music, and they are very similar to our major and natural minor scales, with slight variations of interval placement. In fact the Ionian Mode has the precise interval order of a major scale, and the Aeolian Mode the precise interval order of the natural minor. Likewise, I would not be too concerned about that DO-RE-MI solfeggio -- at this time, I would concentrate on the letter names of the notes

Just a couple more questions: Are you able to construct a major scale starting on various notes, like B-flat, or D, for instance? Are you able to construct or “spell” major or minor chords, built on B, or on E-flat, for instance? Are you determined to continue in self-teaching, or will you possibly employ a teacher if you can find a suitable one?

While I would advise AGAINST browsing the internet for information, which will only be grossly confusing, KeyString has posted above a SINGLE SOURCE to check out. I would trust her judgment on something like this, with the admonishment to use ONLY that source. Every system of music rudiments and theory is going to approach things slightly differently, and it is vital when you are getting started with this stuff to pick a good ONE, and stick with it.

Once you get past the rudiments stage (key, intervals, scales, chords), then other more in-depth books await. And, as you work through this stuff, you may always return here for additional info or with questions that need clarification.

I am also hoping that other (actual) teachers chime in here with their sage advice.
Ed


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A small disclaimer on the Ricci Adams site that I posted earlier. I used it to study for a while some 5 or 6 years ago when I knew a lot less than I do know and I can't vouch for its quality - as far as I knew it was ok. The main point is that when it tests things, it also gives students a chance to learn what is tested, which Good-Ear does not.

A much more thorough site is Teoria: " Teoria Here you can also satisfy your curiosity about the modes. It would be good to learn the basic things in order, though, before venturing too far afield. Go from the familiar to the unfamiliar.

As Ed said, if you can find a good teacher then he will be able to put this all into perspective, tie it in with actual music, and maybe give you an insight via your instrument as well.

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Yes I can construct scales starting on various keys, and since I learned my scales through music I'm more familar with some then others, for example DM,AM (seems to be popular in modern music for some reason), and CM(of course). Yes I can construct chords, however I get a bit confused with chords in F# major and B major.I know the simple types of chords: major,minor,diminished,augments,sus4, 7th (I think)

I have a teacher right now, but he kinda is a convient pick,if you know what I mean (close,cheap,etc). He follows the book for 30 mins then I go home. So I study pieces and practice stuff on my own.He thinks I'm getting way ahead of myself playing advanced songs(probably right).But I can't stand reading Alfred's lessons book as my criteria. I wanna play,play,PLAY!lol

I'm going Digital Piano shopping(time for an upgrade) and Teacher hunting this weekend. I met a real nice teacher at Jacob's music piano shop, she's extremely talented and is gifted with perfect pitch and 10 plaques on her wall, lol. Her mother is also a teacher but only teaches progidys. It'll bump my lesson cost from $25 to $70 but good quality teaching is priceless.Hopefully she'll have a more customized approach to teaching.

Just so you know where I'm at right now as far as skill the hardest peice I can play with a few fumbles is George Winston's Canon. I fumble on the thirds on page 3, and the tremolo on the last page, but am able to play the rest fluently. Here's the sheets so you know what I'm talking about. http://www.scribd.com/doc/14667545/Pachelbel-Canon-Piano-George-Winston-Sheet-Music

Like I said earlier even though I can play a intermediate piece like George Winston Canon. I feel like I'm merely memorizing, repeating, playing. Instead of learning,understanding, knowing what I'm doing or why it's written the way it is etc.

My next peice I want to learn is Mozart Turkish March but this time I want to really have an understanding of the piece not just play, repeat, play, repeat, until I get it.

You stated " Every system of music rudiments and theory is going to approach things slightly differently, and it is vital when you are getting started with this stuff to pick a good ONE, and stick with it." Do you think the Dummies series is a good source of information for studying Music Theory? It seems like a lot of good information but then again I'm not educated on the subject.

I hope that's enough info about my current knowledge,skill, plans, goals,etc

@keystring: Thanks for the link!


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[quote=JulianG123]Yes I can construct scales starting on various keys, and since I learned my scales through music I'm more familar with some then others, for example DM,AM (seems to be popular in modern music for some reason), and CM(of course). Yes I can construct chords, however I get a bit confused with chords in F# major and B major.I know the simple types of chords: major,minor,diminished,augments,sus4, 7th (I think)
[quote]
Julian, some thoughts:

1) CM, if it is used, is for the chord. In all cases it is better to simply write "C". So if you are talking about keys, use "major". Or "key":

Key of C, Key of C major.
C = C major chord = C E G

If you are talking about chords, then F# and B are just as important as G and C. Learn them immediately. Learn every major chord in root position. Start out with your LH only, but ASAP to it with both hands. Add pedal ASAP.

Why? Because you can use major chords as "home base". You can then alter them, in this way:

C becomes Cm, C dim (the triad), C aug. You can add "7s" to these chords once you know them.

Once you get to "seven" chords, the most common student mistake is not to know the difference between these:

G7, G maj7

The same problem exists for any of the seven chords, so C7 and Cmaj7. If you do not know the difference, ask. This is very important.

A word about scales: they are important. I don't know a single musician, playing any style of music on any instrument, who does not know scales. It is reasonble to learn all major scales first, before other scales.

HOWEVER:

A thorough knowledge of chords will give you a different view of scales. Here is an example:

C = C E G
Csus = C F G
Csus2 = C D G
C6 = C E G A
Cmaj7 = C E G B

If you take a moment to think about those, they cover EVERY note in the C scale. If you know those chords in all keys, you know the notes in every scale. You will find all those chords in jazz/pop, but you will find them all in Bach, Mozart and Chopin.

Also, the primary chords in any key will give you all the notes in the key.

Example:

C = C E G = I
F = F A C = IV
G = G B D = V

Again, all notes in C major are covered.

Modes? They can all be found in a major scale. Don't worry about their names yet. There are 7 of them, and you make them by playing from any note in a scale to the same note and using the first note as your tonal center. When jazz sites give you fancy names and tell you that some mode or another goes with a chord, that is basically correct but bass-ackwards. I can explain that if you are curious, and so can other people here. smile

The "Dummie" series will attempt to tell you that "clear" is the same as "simple". I don't think anything about music is simple, so clarity is terribly important, also organization. Skip the dumbed-down self-help books and get a good teacher! (Or if you have one, make sure you are listening properly...)

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Originally Posted by chrisbell
Have a look here first, then get back with any questions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode

For this source I would start here:

"By definition, all major scales use the same interval sequence T-T-s-T-T-T-s, where "s" means a semitone and "T" means a whole tone (two semitones). From the modal point of view, this interval sequence is called the Ionian or Major mode. It is one of the seven modern modes—seven because only seven diatonic notes can be used as the tonic. Taking any major scale, a new scale is obtained by taking a different degree of the major scale as the tonic."

I would then use the key of C major, as the "pattern" scale or key, this way:

I = Ionian= C D E F G A B C
II= Dorian = D E F G A B C D
III = Phrygian = E F G A B C D E
IV= Lydian = F G A B C D E F
V= Mixolydian = G A B C D E F G
VI= Aeolian = A B C D E F G A
VII = Locrian = B C D E F G A B

I = Ionian = major scale
II= Dorian = a kind of minor scale especially popular with jazz musicians
III = Phrygian = not usually named
IV= Lydian = exotic form of major very popular for a "fantasy sound"
V= Mixolydian = not usually named
VI= Aeolian = natural minor
VII = Locrian = not usually named

Warning: for a deep understanding of modes, historically, you would need to go WAY back in musical history and take a very different look at the whole subject. I don't think such a view is practical for most people play music from the 19th through the 21st centuries.

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Hmm. What happened to Julian?

Gary D. #1888455 04/29/12 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Hmm. What happened to Julian?


He may be overwhelmed with information overload.


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Originally Posted by Studio Joe
Originally Posted by Gary D.
Hmm. What happened to Julian?


He may be overwhelmed with information overload.

True. smile

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I'm here Gary, I had to work a double today :S. I didn't pull a P.A.D.S

Thanks for giving me the correct terminology with scales and chords.
Ok let me try it
F# = chord
F# major = scale

No, I know F# and B chords. I was saying that I can't readily identify the chords in scales with a lot of sharps or flats, such F# major and B major.

I believe my teacher taught me that a major triad is the starting point for the simple chords.

CM to Cm = drop the middle finger a half step
CM to dim= drop the top finger a half
CM to aug= raise top finger a half step
CM to 7th= add a third to the major triad

Now to 7 and maj7, I don't know the difference.

You said:

I = Ionian= C D E F G A B C
II= Dorian = D E F G A B C D
III = Phrygian = E F G A B C D E
IV= Lydian = F G A B C D E F
V= Mixolydian = G A B C D E F G
VI= Aeolian = A B C D E F G A
VII = Locrian = B C D E F G A B

That went way over my head to be honest, I understand what you saying but it doesn't make sense to me, unless i'm over thinking it. By simply starting the C major scale at a different note, I'd be playing a whole new mode?


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Originally Posted by JulianG123
I'm here Gary, I had to work a double today :S. I didn't pull a P.A.D.S

I understand!

The mother of two of my nicest students had to work at least 80 hours one week. People are being asked to do insane things now.
Quote

Thanks for giving me the correct terminology with scales and chords.
Ok let me try it
F# = chord
F# major = scale

That's exactly right. smile And you will see F#M for an F# major chord. Letter notation is very flexible. In general, the idea is to keep symbols as simple as possible, so chords are major chords by default, so C, F#, B, Ab all mean major chords.
Quote

No, I know F# and B chords. I was saying that I can't readily identify the chords in scales with a lot of sharps or flats, such F# major and B major.

I'm just throwing out ideas. Tomorrow, next week or next month you may get an absolutely amazing teacher, and then you might get all this from that teacher. But students who come to me from other teachers usually don't know much about chords. I ran into a HUGE exception yesterday. A transfer student came to me with a whole list of chords and how to form them in different keys. They were all 100% correct.

For scales, let me hit you with a slightly different way to think about them. Only learn your scales from 0 (C major) through 3 (Eb major and A major). Then REVERSE them.

For example, do you know Cb major and C# major? Yes, you do, because all you have to do is start with C and then flat every note or sharp every note. You may or may not have to do some mental gymnastics to remember that E#=F, Fb=E, B#=C, Cb=B, but that is the only confusing part. You probably know this, but if you play any major scale down, like this:

C B A G F E D C

It will give you the Christmas tune "Joy to the World" (...the lord is come). If you play that down in Cb and C#, you have a window into weird keys. If you are lucky, you won't have to deal with those keys for a long time.

But for the others you just flip.

If you know that F major is:

F E D C Bb A G F

Then F# major is:

F# E# D# C# **B** A# G# F#

The only note that was flat in the key of F becomes natural in the key of F#. It's like the negative of a photo. Everything reverses. You still have one troublesome "white sharp", E#, but when you get to two sharps or flats, the problem is gone.

D is a very common key. You have F# and C#. So Db just reverses, and ONLY F and C are natural. Again, it flips.

You talked about B major, the key. You pretty much have to know Bb major, because it is a very useful key for wind instruments. It is sort of the home key for brass and a very comfortable key for clarinent and sax.

So don't try to remember the sharps. FLIP the flats:

In Bb major, Bb and Eb are the only flats.
In B major, B and E are the only naturals. Everything else is sharp.

Modes? Please forget about them for now. You can find them all just by using your major scales and simple starting on another name besides the normal starting point.
Quote

I believe my teacher taught me that a major triad is the starting point for the simple chords.

CM to Cm = drop the middle finger a half step
CM to dim= drop the top finger a half
CM to aug= raise top finger a half step
CM to 7th= add a third to the major triad

Now to 7 and maj7, I don't know the difference.

You got stuck exactly where all students get stuck.

For now, remember that maj7 is 1/2 step SHORT of the octave. Example: C----B

7 is TWO 1/2 steps SHORT of the octave. Example: C----Bb

You add the 7 to your triad.

C maj7 = C E G B
C 7 = C E G Bb

D maj7 = D F# A C#
*D 7* = D F# A *C*
Quote

By simply starting the C major scale at a different note, I'd be playing a whole new mode?

This is EXACTLY correct. Since there are 7 notes in a major scale, there are 7 modes. Everything else after that is fine tuning for people playing jazz, pop, etc. smile

Last edited by Gary D.; 04/30/12 02:19 AM. Reason: typo caught be Ed!!!
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Sorry guys - Mr. Detail is here!

Originally Posted by JulianG123
I believe my teacher taught me that a major triad is the starting point for the simple chords.

CM to Cm = drop the middle finger a half step
CM to dim= drop the top finger a half
CM to aug= raise top finger a half step
CM to 7th= add a third to the major triad

Transforming a C major triad to a C diminished triad involves lowering the third (so-called middle finger) a half-step AS WELL AS lowering the fifth (so-called top finger) a half-step.

C diminished triad = C + Eb + Gb.

And Julian, it will become much more universal if you start thinking in terms of the keys on the piano, and the half-steps they form -- ie. lowering the PITCH that is being played by your third finger, (for instance), or dropping the PITCH a half-step. Not simply dropping your finger.


Originally Posted by Gary D.
You add the 7 to your triad.

C maj7 = C E G B
C 7 = C E G Bb

D maj7 = D F# A C#
D maj7 = D F# A *C*

Gary must have pulled a “double” today too, because:
D maj7 = D F# A C#
D 7 = D F# A C

Actually, Julian, it appears that you have learned a great deal of correct and useful information from your current teacher. I am just wondering if it would not be smart to go back to him/her with a renewed list of how you would like to proceed from here. Sometimes teachers simply assume that a student wants to continue on a particular, comfortable course of learning. He/she may be able and willing to take you a lot further if you simply let her/him know how you would like to advance. Just a thought . . . . .

Ed



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Originally Posted by Mr. Detail
Gary must have pulled a “double” today too, because:
D maj7 = D F# A C#
D 7 = D F# A C

Dear Mr. D.,

Typo fixed. smile I THINK!

Dratted copy command is so handy, but I forget to do the next step and delete something.

About dim triads:

I would mention that more than any other chords, diminished triads change spelling according to where they go to.

So I would accept C Eb Gb, C Eb F# and C D# F# as all valid, out of context. I don't want Julian to worry about this though. I think maybe he meant to type Cm to C dim, lower 5th finger.

Do you agree that just plain "C" is more common for C major than CM? smile

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in regards to modes:

First consider your major scale, which is in fact a "mode", with the natural minor scale being another "mode". They are leftovers from the original seven.

Your major scale has intervals of whole tones (W) and half tones (H) that go like this in the key of C major.

C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C
In other words, the intervals are WWHWWWH.
We use the "white key scale" of C major as an easy model. All other major scales have that same set of intervals.
G major
G(W)A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(W)F#(H)G
Eb major
Eb(W)F(W)G(H)Ab(W)Bb(W)C(W)D(H)Eb
etc.
This set of intervals gives major scales their characteristic sound, and results in the types of chords you get. The major scale is also the Ionian mode which existed before anyone thought of major or minor scales.

Each of the modes has its own characteristic set of whole tones and half tones and you can find them by taking the white keys and going from C to C, D to D, E to E etc. as per Gary's list. Let's add the intervals.

Ionian= C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C
Dorian = D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C(W)D
Phrygian = E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E
Lydian = F(W)G(W)A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(H)F
Mixolydian = G(W)A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G
Aeolian = A(W)B(H)C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A
Locrian = B(H)C(W)D(W)E(H)F(W)G(W)A(W)B

The Dorian mode doesn't go only from D to D, just like a major scale doesn't just go from C to C. Using the white keys is simply a quick way of seeing what the intervals are for each.

Have you had a chance to look at the Theoria site that I linked before? It explains it much better.

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First of all, chord names, and the spelling of chords, is always a real hornet’s nest, especially for anyone first learning them. But even for those of us who know the drill in our sleep, the methods are full of vagueness and ambiguity.
So, I am going to take us slightly off topic here, with prior apologies to Julian.

Originally Posted by Gary D.
About dim triads:
I would mention that more than any other chords, diminished triads change spelling according to where they go to. . . . . . So I would accept C Eb Gb, C Eb F# and C D# F# as all valid, out of context.

I can agree, in part, if we are discussing voice-leading, where the notes of one chord “lead” upward, or downward (or stay common-tone) to the notes of the following chord. However, if we are simply considering the spelling of a single chord, there is only one way to spell, and only one “correct” set of notes.
For example, a C diminished triad is spelled: C + Eb + Gb, and NO OTHER WAY.

Why? Because once we “name” a chord, we have taken it out of the world of sound, and placed it in the realm of theory. The chord, that was only a sound of three simultaneous notes, once named, has now become subject to certain, well established rules of analysis and construction. Following our example, a C diminished triad is constructed with a root, a minor third above that root, and a diminished fifth (thus the name) above that root. Classic theory. We can also mention the inversions of this triad: First inversion = Eb + Gb + C , and Second inversion = Gb + C + Eb. These are still a C diminished triad. The positions of the notes from bottom-to-top change, but the note names, and the chord name, remain the same.

What gets really confusing is that to which Gary is alluding: namely, that if the diminished fifth (Gb) of our C diminished triad, “leads” upward to the note G, then the composer or arranger may well write that tone as F# (same SOUND as Gb), because it is easier for the player to think of a sharped note ascending to the next note, and any flatted note descending to the next note. This enharmonic re-naming of the various sounds in the chord, however, have no theoretical bearing on the correct spelling of said chord.

Ed


In music, everything one does correctly helps everything else.
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