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Originally Posted by Glenn NK
My take on this is that if each key/note of a piano only produced the fundamental (no overtones at all), it could be possible. But that is not the case.

Even the simplest of cases (hypothetical of course) where each note had only the fundamental and the first overtone (an octave higher), and the pianist struck only two keys an octave apart (dampers on the strings to prevent SR), how could software tell if one or two or three keys were struck?


Glenn


seems like you could program the recognition software to only indicate notes or signals at a certain volume or dynamic level? it would seem the overtones would have a different dynamic signature than the struck note? not that i have a clue...


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
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There is Band in a Box from pgmusic with Chord analysis. Here what they say,
"The Audio Chord Wizard has the amazing ability to analyze, extract, and show the chords from audio recordings on-screen and then write them to the Band-in-a-Box chord sheet."

I tried it a few times and it help me find the melody and the chords of a song.

Serge



“To send light into the darkness of men’s hearts - such is the duty of the artist.”
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good input Serge. haven't used Band-in-Box in a long time..


Steinway M; Roland V-Piano; Yamaha P250;
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Originally Posted by bfb
Originally Posted by Glenn NK
My take on this is that if each key/note of a piano only produced the fundamental (no overtones at all), it could be possible. But that is not the case.

Even the simplest of cases (hypothetical of course) where each note had only the fundamental and the first overtone (an octave higher), and the pianist struck only two keys an octave apart (dampers on the strings to prevent SR), how could software tell if one or two or three keys were struck?


Glenn


seems like you could program the recognition software to only indicate notes or signals at a certain volume or dynamic level? it would seem the overtones would have a different dynamic signature than the struck note? not that i have a clue...


A small problem arises: what if I play middle C very quietly and high C loudly? The dynamics solution to distinguish the two notes then won't work.

As a piano player I very often do play notes at different dynamic levels (velocities in the midi terminology) for effect and nuance.

On a clarinet, a number of notes can be played with different fingerings (upper and lower registers). The result is notes with the same/similar pitch but different timbres. How does software get the right one?

In general instruments that can play more than one note at a time and in which there is "cross-talk" (sympathetic resonance) between notes will be extremely difficult to decode. Single note instruments (horns, etc) that can't hold more than one note at a time may be possible.

But personally I'm not betting on the complex instruments ever being decoded.

An orchestra? I don't even dream of that one.

Glenn

EDIT:

When is the last time you heard a good saxophonist that didn't use pitch bends - now what does the software do? Guitars use them frequently and they employ SR.

I've created pitch bends in my MIDI editor - is there an easy way to notate this on a score?

There are so many complexities that the practicality of the undertaking is questionable.

Last edited by Glenn NK; 02/01/12 04:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by erichlof
I'm not saying it is impossible - everything that can be computed in this universe will ultimately be computed by the time we humans are done with our quest for knowledge/tech. But I wouldn't know how to even start this kind of software project. It maybe a decade before we make significant strides.

Yes and No. I am actually doing my research in music analysis as a computer scientist. Technically speaking there is a simple algorithm i.e. list all possible combinations, evaluate how the spectrum (cepstrum, whatever) would look like for each configuration and pick the most probable one, but there is a catch - such a system would work in exponential time and the problem is NP-complete which means that no machine would be ever able to scale it well.

Last edited by gnembon; 02/01/12 03:13 PM.
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Great discussions guys.
Bruce B,
(Disclaimer I'm just a very old very part-time hobbyist piano thumber for a couple of years, but longtime computer geek.)
Anyway, I tried all the all of em (Celemony Melodyne, IntelliScore Ensemble, Widisoft, AudioScore) disclaimer#2 just my results & i am no pro but... None were very useful. (even if they got a fair portion of the notes in midi they were not timed correctly/quantized.)

But as part of my ear training (for me, there was no substitute for closing eyes & opening ears) process I use dirt cheap, Seventh String Transcribe all the time. (used to use Audicity...weak by compare) It just plain works at showing you the various runs & chords etc. (most of the time & after a little practice I got good enough to know when it is right or wrong.) Yea, I slow it down allot sometimes, not as much as I used to ! smile
I can now pretty much tell what key a piece is in & hack/play very short time within a minute or 2 just by listening, no softare.
Here is 30 day trial.
http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/download.html
Here's a playlist put together of Mark H's great tutorial on Transcribe & his lightning fast input into Sibelius.(remember though that is for sax so he doesn't have to worry about piano chords)
Btw, No credit for me on tutorial at all. He did all of it (I just organized it into a easy list of them.)
But notice he DOES NOT use the spectrum tool (because he has such a good ear ). I use spectrum tool all the time for the various chords mostly.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL951DF7D2DF08491A&feature=g-playlist

Oh yea, if you download the piano version of Random Hearts ("Now Playing: Movie Themes - Solo Piano") it is fairly easy to see what is happening with the complex jazz chords he does(key of Am) by using Transcribe. (I ain't saying i get all the notes perfect each time....at all)

good luck, it sure is allot of fun.
imho, yrmv. & sorry about small font.

Edit Disclaimer#3: 7th String Transcribe is NOT auto transcribe software. It provides really good fidelity when slowing down music (very important for picking out triads, etc) & pretty good guesses of which notes are played via waveform spectrum analysis. Regardless, it is just a visual associating learning tool but once your ear tuning get's there well....& imho all it takes is no more practice than learning to read music.

Last edited by glovewildplaces; 03/06/12 10:04 AM.
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thanks Glovewildplaces- i will look at Transcribe.

PS: for an "old guy" you sure are comfortable with SMALL FONT!!! I guess your eyes are still as good as your ears!



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Thanks ! Sorry, about that font I just try & make fit cause i'm so long winded.;)

Last edited by glovewildplaces; 03/06/12 09:58 AM.
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