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since Boston and Essex pianos are obviously cheaper than actual Steinway & Son's, I'm unconvinced that students would gladly double their surcharge just so they get Steinway uprights. even if they were to purchase other brands the cost will likely be the same, and without comparing competing packages it's difficult to say whether they still got the best deal in town, though clearly the school itself thinks it is worthwhile. Being that these students are all studying to be future professionals I would hope that they know what their money bought since they have to practice on these pianos... so in conclusion i think the students themselves are more than capable of judging how well their money was spent without the rest of us making a huge fuss about it on their behalf.

I don't remember seeing this posted here before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SAR1lxdyYM

This, of course, will be a never ending saga on PW because we can discuss it until the cows come home and at the end of the day...

Many Steinway and Sons piano owners will want a clear line drawn between S&S and Boston/Essex so as to not devalue their pianos.
Many Boston/Essex owners will want to assert their pianos are real Steinways for the prestige.
Steinway, their dealers, and many people will believe and assert that there is nothing wrong with Steinway's marketing.
Many dealers who do not sell Steinway and many other people will disapprove of Steinway's marketing.

And everyone with an opinion strong enough to assert it here will still be trying to convince everyone else they are right.

I just thought I'd share what has impressed me as the futility of it all...

I had decided I was not going to post here in this thread again as a member… I have my reasons. While having my 3rd cup of coffee this morning I logged on to Piano World and opened the thread. I saw the YT video that Steve posted. I took the time to watch it (about 13 minutes).

My observations… I enjoyed the background music. Most every administrator of every music college or university with a music program had "Dr." in front of their name, except one. I never saw or heard one single mention of a Boston or Essex piano in the mix of pianos at any of these all Steinway schools. My impression was that every school truly did have all Steinway pianos… period; not pianos that were designed by Steinway.

Also, I noticed the video was produced and uploaded to YT by Steinwayofficial, what ever that means.

I wonder if every school represented in the video really has 100%, all Steinway pianos in concert halls, teacher's offices and practice rooms?

Guess I’m just skeptical.

Rick

I've likewise been trying to stay out of this thread/topic but since we seem to be trodding over the same territory again, what the hey. I'll say from the outset that I'd like to see Steinway change their label from "All Steinway" to something like "All Steinway Musical Instruments" or "Steinway Family of Pianos" school. A little awkward but more transparent.

I can't help but wonder though if Steinway is being held here to a higher standard of transparency than other makers -not to justify lack of transparency but this seems to be a wider issue. Ever go to the Brodmann site ? You'd be hard pressed to find out from reading it that the majority of these pianos are made in China -- "components sourced from the Far East " is an oblique reference in the description of the Conservatory series. Ditto the Baldwin site.
Here's a quote from the M&H website: "Mason & Hamlin is headquartered in Haverhill, Massachusetts, not far from its original location in Boston, the birthplace of American piano design and manufacturing. Six floors of its busy factory are dedicated to handcrafting Mason & Hamlin pianos. Within its walls, a workforce of 70 highly skilled craftsmen complete every phase of production from rim-pressing to prepping the finished product." Hmm, I guess "every phase of production" doesn't include making the components from China that Piano Buyer references. I think from previous threads that this includes the plate.

If we're going to hold manufacturers' feet to the fire in terms of transparency, let's do it.

Sophia

Steve,

There are three such videos directly from Steinway on youtube. I linked to one in its entirety on the banished thread. Some members responded. I remember in particular Sophial's comment noting the slick PR production values. I liked to a couple of segments from these videos on this thread: one from Rob Cutietta of USC; the other from Dean Tim Blair at West Chester.

To me, these are one of the points at which the rubber meets the road in terms of cross-promotion and manicuring of information. It is obvious who produced the videos. It is obvious who provided the soundtrack and interwove the historical and current footage of the Steinway factory in NEw York. It is obvious what was said and what was never mentioned as well as which schools were represented and which were not. It is obvious what question was asked of each college spokesperson even though the questioner never appears on camera. It is obvious where the videos were made unless all colleges and universities share the same office decorating service which installs the same vases and lamps in each institution. It is obvious that only Curtis and Julliard had their testimonials done in full light against a backdrop of a Steinway & Sons grand piano and an identical fireplace. There are many other things that are obvious as well. Maybe other members will notice.

Here are the links to all three promo videos direct from Steinway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SAR1lxdyYM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kneCIaPqGOY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LamIVCWYvTs&feature=related

...and it's obvious that the entire thrust of that truly well made video is aimed at donors.


I too noted that the names Boston and Essex never appeared. The term "Steinway designed" did appear once.

Many PW members already know that All Steinway School can include Boston and Essex. The other 99% of the population would think All Steinway Musical Instruments or Steinway Family of Pianos mean the same thing as Steinway.

I'd agree that many other makers are not transparent, but OTOH there is no such thing as An All Mason Hamlin, Brodmann, etc. School.

Why should concerns about transparency only be associated with school programs? It's a broader issue in the industry. Should we have a double standard for certain types of advertising and not others? or certain manufacturers and not others?

This thread is about transparency in school programs. I think the biggest harm has been what I would call the double talking response of the Steinway dealer thusfar.

You can certainly start a thread about any other area of transparency or include your comments here.

How kind of you to give me permission to include my comments here, pianoloverus, or should I address you as Your High Moderatorness now?

I think actually this thread began as a question as to why the previous thread was pulled and like so many of the discussions here has touched on a variety of related issues, transparency in the industry certainly seeming to be among them.

Ken,
Futile yes. Futile for everyone involved in this thread? Maybe-maybe not. Perhaps it serves some purpose(benefit?) to some or all of Steinway's competing dealers who have their own agenda and marketing concerns.

fingers

That may (or may not) apply to Steve Cohen. It hardly applies to most of the rest of us who have contributed ideas and comments. Who do I represent? Who does William represent? Who does Sophia represent?

I wasn't giving you permission, just pointing out that you can discuss general transparency further if it was an issue for you.

Piano Dad,
I'm sorry-did I inadvertently mention you, William or Sofia?
I know I did refer to "competing dealers."
As to your question, I don't know who you represent, if anyone or anything, nor am I curious.

fingers

Exactly. I want to make it clear that I am not trying to impugn the character of anyone in this topic, Steve, Turandot, or anyone else. I was making an observation of how these things always go. There are certain topics like this that generate a lot of posts but almost never get resolved to conclusions.

Ken,

I, too, was making an observation that while I may agree with you about your observation regarding "that's how these things go", it is also possible that some/all competing dealers may derive some benefit(intended or unintended)from these types of threads,and therefore, they may NOT be entirely futile.

fingers

Fingers, you're right. It can happen. And we all know it sometimes does.

Steinway uprights are not the best uprights allover the world. They don't have the best sound of all uprights. This bonus deserves to go either to the Mammooth piano or the Klavins 12 ft. upright once 1986 installed in Bonn, Germany, or the ultra high 58'', 52'' etc. viennese and southern german pianos, named "Konzertklaviere" - and maybe also to the brand new Bechstein Konzertklavier which have soundboards in square feet bigger than 180cm grands and so have a resulting power in tone that is only superseeded by seven footer grands and bigger toys.

Nor do they have the best mechanics giving most responsible feelings back to the pianists's fingers.

The best piano for students to practice on is another cup of tea.. The best is to have a good sound fitting to the room acoustics AND to have a super mechanism (english "double repetition system") which is only available with grands, may they be tiny baby grand ones of 5 feet length or may they be seven footer or may they be ninefoooter concert grands, that doesn't matter so much.

Matter is to have the strings horizontally and to have the hammers agitating from the downside, have them bounce back by "string spring effect" plus gravitation, AND to use some ingenious tricks once invented by Monsieur Sebastien Erard in Paris 1821 and converted in an extremely sophisticated mechanic system sitting 88 times between the key (capstan screw) and the hammer shank i.e. its leathered knuckle.

see http://www.rennerusa.com/VirtualActionModel.asp

This slim wooden frame triangle is THE THING. If you don't have it - 88 times - then sry pls. forget to grow up and educate a later-so-becoming world class young pianist.

For education purposes: You OUGHT to prefer always a grand compared with any upright, may they have the famous Steinway & Sons name on the fallbord or any other name.. a grand will be nearly always better. (OK take a Steinway grand and everything may come to a fine end..)

It interesting that the term "best" is most commonly used in countries where contenders for this lofty term are not common, not being made or not even existing.

In Germany, few would waste their time figuring out what their "best" car would be.

Everybody knows each makes has certain models that could earn such designation.
Ever driven a Volkswagen "Phaeton"?

Same for Germany's pianos - or for that matter, anybody else's

"Best" is mostly in the mind of those owning...ahem..."whatever"

For some it's the old Ibach upright inherited from grandma.

For others it's their family's Heintzman, Knabe, Baldwin or what have you...

For you - it's just what you like "best"

Norbert