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Originally Posted by daviel
I bet we do not have many song copyright owners in this thread. IIRC the copyright terms were lengthened not too long ago. Again, the policy is the artist gets paid. A user of the music pays a royalty. What's wrong with that?
At some point, it does become a problem.

Think of all the great music by Liszt that would have never gotten made if he was forced to get the rights to Mozart's and Beethoven's pieces he altered. When cultural staples are owned by a few and not everyone, does the culture stagnate?

At the end though, this is one highlight of the failure of our current copyright system. Obviously, there are people who want high quality arrangements and people willing to make and sell them, but the current copyright model makes it cost prohibited to do so. The only way to change that is to agitate for change.


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Originally Posted by MathTeacher
Ok, then I guess there is eternally no solution to meet the demand of getting (affordably) advanced transcriptions of popular songs. It is illegal for the transcribers to sell them on their own, and publishers will not invest in them because all the average players (perhaps 90% of the market) won't want to buy them.

I guess I'll just have to do what I've been doing for years. Transcribe properly all the songs I like myself. And everyone else disappointed by the music sheets out there will have to do the same (and if you cannot transcribe, or don't have the time to, your out of luck).


Frustrating as the situation is, the fact that the law is as it is not the fault of anybody on this forum. At least, I assume it isn't.

Maybe there is a market for what you produce, although as others have noted you might do better to approach a publisher with experience of the copyright situation, rather than trying to go it alone. It's worth bearing in mind that even the ubiquitious Hal Leonard was unable to negotiate the rights to publish legally everything in the bootleg Real Book -- which shows how difficult this job is.

But in the UK, at least, there are publishers producing transcriptions of pop songs, etc., and sometimes quite sophisticated ones. It's the small-scale activities that are not well-supported by the current law.


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Originally Posted by appleman

Think of all the great music by Liszt that would have never gotten made if he was forced to get the rights to Mozart's and Beethoven's pieces he altered. When cultural staples are owned by a few and not everyone, does the culture stagnate?


Indeed. But the problem is technology, as it so often is. In the days before recorded music, musicians could still make a living if other people appropriated bits of their work.

We do need IP law that fits the technology that we have, rather than a return to the days of Bach. Unfortunately, what we have seems to be based in the mid-19th century publishing model.

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NEW IDEA

Ok, how about this. All people like me who want better piano transcriptions of their favourite songs and have been painstakingly doing their own arrangements can form a group and trade with each other. No money involved, so the original artists cannot complain.

After all the trading, there will likely still be many songs that members of the group want. So we make requests. If there is a request, then he has to make a good transcription of a song that a willing arranger wants. And so forth. This way, we can eventually get nice arrangements of all our favourite songs.

Any opinions? Anyone interested in joining such a group (remember, you must be a good transcriber yourself though)? Remember: no matter how good a transcriber you are, you probably won't be able to produce excellent arrangements of all your favourite songs since that is too time-consuming. You will need help from others.

Just a heads up: I've been transcribing songs from the 80's mostly, some from the 70's, though the song I'm arranging right now is from just 2 years ago. Also, my arrangements are always in 3 layers (sometimes 4): layer 1 is the melody, layer 2 are the chords attached to the melody, and layer 3 are instrumental melodies that are usually simultaneous with the singing (always neglected by those darn music sheets), and sometimes layer 4 for another instrumental melody (different instrument). Often the bass staff has multiple layers too, so you better have good hands. I never make verses mere repeats of each other, always add instrumental solos when there is one (again, neglected by those music sheets), and so on...

Last edited by MathTeacher; 07/06/11 02:53 PM.
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google groups is a pretty good way to set up a list that people can join...
https://groups.google.com/forum/
Click new group and so forth and so on. (You know the drill)

Another suggestion would be to keep guys like me in mind.

By that I mean people who WANT to learn how to make detailed advanced arrangements but aren't yet any good at it...
I mean, I guess you have to develop a knack for hearing the exact chord inversion and melody finesse-ing for piano and probably other instruments like drums, bass, etc, too.

This is a skill I PLAN to get good at.
So eventually, I'd LOVE to join a group like that.

Anyways, that's my 2c.

I =wish= to respect copyright.
But the other side of the coin is... I wish to PLAY and COMPOSE better.
If you write down a good song and provide me a way to pay for it, I will.


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Originally Posted by Stephen Hazel
google groups is a pretty good way to set up a list that people can join...
https://groups.google.com/forum/
Click new group and so forth and so on. (You know the drill)

Another suggestion would be to keep guys like me in mind.

By that I mean people who WANT to learn how to make detailed advanced arrangements but aren't yet any good at it...
I mean, I guess you have to develop a knack for hearing the exact chord inversion and melody finesse-ing for piano and probably other instruments like drums, bass, etc, too.

This is a skill I PLAN to get good at.
So eventually, I'd LOVE to join a group like that.

Anyways, that's my 2c.

I =wish= to respect copyright.
But the other side of the coin is... I wish to PLAY and COMPOSE better.
If you write down a good song and provide me a way to pay for it, I will.


Yeah, why not? If you want to join such a group, it would be of great benefit to you since you can see everybody's lists. Like a huge store of advanced music sheets, and then you can work out a "way" to get the ones you want. But by law, we won't be able to accept money.

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Come to think of it, the group can be in the form of a forum, where there is a section for trading transcriptions and a section for those who wish to learn how to transcribe. As far as I know, there is currently no forum on piano transcriptions. Such a money-free forum should be perfectly legal and ethical.

Last edited by MathTeacher; 07/06/11 03:51 PM.
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uservoice.com might be a good possibility too.
https://app.uservoice.com/account/new/free

It's not quite a forum, but users can post.
Then, vote on the posts.
It's free and THEY take care of backing up messages and
keeping spammers/hackers out.

Main tricky part is coming ACROSS people like yourself and
TELLING em of such a place.
(And not look like you're spammin pianoworld)

I can gladly host any docs on transcription.
I already have "piano 101" and "practicing basics" doc sets.
http://pianocheater.com/docs/piano
http://pianocheater.com/docs/practice

I think this is something sorely needed by pop piano learners.
I remember when I first started.
Wow! Look at all the pop sheet music I can get!
Order, order, buy, buy, order.
I start playing and then...

ummm...

I can't play =THIS= drivel to my friends!
I can barely stand the songs myself, and I'm a piano player!

Now there are SOME that are good.
Classic Rock Note For Note (35 songs) - Hal Leonard, and the like.
But there aren't MANY of the like...

Usually it's stuff like
Journey Greatest Hits - Alfred Publishing
The songs are ok, better than starting from scratch.
But they could use some serious improvement smirk

Well, anyways, I'd be glad to help any way I can.
But, I'm also not totally sure that just being "money free"
will avoid all copyright restrictions smirk
(Personally, I think learning piano takes precedence over copyright.
But, just cuz I think it doesn't mean nothin when it comes sue-in' time)

Also, here's another thread along the same lines as this one:
http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1435261/1.html


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So Stephen and I are looking into co-administering a Piano Transcriptions forum, where attachments like pdf, midi, musicXML, etc... files are enabled. If you would like to join, let one of us know. Without members, it won't materialize. With enough members, one can multiply his library of advanced transcriptions by a large number, all for free.

Last edited by MathTeacher; 07/06/11 06:11 PM.
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I've PM'd our fearless leader about it.
(Mr. Pianoworld himself, Frank B.)

I kinda suspect he won't want to fight copyright problems, of course.

There are also forums ON pianoworld that sound suspiciously like
what we're after.
(Composer's Lounge, Member Recordings, Pianist Corner - Non Classical)
And PianoWorld allows at least links to youtube, etc.
Has the private message route.

In the end though, I think you just want specifically pop arrangers
who arrange WELL and are willing to trade for free.
It's not a technology problem, it's just a "find a guy" problem frown
I'm not sure there's a better route than email.


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Originally Posted by kevinb
surely you'd just end with nothing but poor-quality, mass-produced rubbish?
smile And that is different in what way from the current pop situation? frown bah


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Well, here's a forum not assoc'd with pianoworld that I just threw together.
Remember, MathTeacher is the main transcriber guy smile
I'm just a computer nerd is all.

http://poptranscription.freeforums.org/

But, unfortunately, the only attachments it'll allow is pictures which it puts inline with the message so you can't download easily.
Actual trades would still need to be done via email.
I'll keep lookin' around...


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Originally Posted by Stephen Hazel
Well, here's a forum not assoc'd with pianoworld that I just threw together.
Remember, MathTeacher is the main transcriber guy smile
I'm just a computer nerd is all.

http://poptranscription.freeforums.org/

But, unfortunately, the only attachments it'll allow is pictures which it puts inline with the message so you can't download easily.
Actual trades would still need to be done via email.
I'll keep lookin' around...


Good job, Stephen. You can talk about your piano program there as well.
I'll be the first to join, and I'll put up a free transcription of a one-hit wonder song to encourage others to join (and also to give a sense of what I mean by advanced transcription).

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Folks: what you're proposing here is almost certainly unlawful. It would certainly be unlawful in the UK, and I strongly suspect it's unlawful in the USA.

I doubt anybody's going to find the copyright police smashing their doors down with rifle butts, but even so...

If you can't be good, be careful smile

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I don't see what the problem is. If you wrote a song, why would you complain if a group of pianists are liking your song and embellishing it with their own skills without profit, for sheer self-enjoyment? It means that you have succeeded in making people enjoy your music.

Oh, and the songs I've transcribed I did buy, since I liked them to begin with, and one usually needs to slow down the music with a special program to get all the notes and rhthym correct.

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Heya Andy - I got a user registered for ya now.

So hopefully the problem with registering new users is fixed (at least for now).
user=MathTeacher password=(same as mine that i already told ya)

But we'll still need to use email attachments or an "uploading site"
http://box.net/ is ok for that.

Also, we'll see what Frank thinks about this tom foolery smile


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Great! Now we can start sharing. To get more members involved, I will for now post a new transcription of mine free of charge for every 5 new members that join. One song is already there. Hopefully, Stephen can manage the forum so that only members can download. Again, here is our new forum:

http://poptranscription.freeforums.org/

We can also discuss transcriptions in general. I don't think there is any forum out there for people who want to discuss transcribing techniques. So, transcribers are most welcomed, even if you don't want to give away any of your work (but hopefully you will want to share).

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Originally Posted by MathTeacher
Hopefully, Stephen can manage the forum so that only members can download.


Well, currently, only members can even SEE the forum.
But there's nothin preventing anyone from joining.
I can add a "review this user before he's allowed in" thingy.
But how can ya tell who's a transcriber and who ain't?
Require an initial song to join the forum?
Who's to say they didn't just find it on the web...
That could get messy frown

Is teaching pop transcription going to be a real emphasis?
If so, you'll want to allow "not-yet-transcribers" in.
If you're just trading "done songs", you'll get join and
drop folks. And not NEARLY the amount of people you'll
find on pianoworld itself, of course.

As far as explaining pop transcribing techniques, that
might be better done on pianoworld with a MUCH huger audience.
There's the Composers Lounge forum here...
Maybe make a SINGLE "Pop Transcription" thread that everyone keeps adding to (similar to the "adult beginners ONE" thread and "digitial piano prices paid" thread, etc).

Members can just tack on messages of their list of songs.
Then PM/email each other to trade amongst proven transcribers.

As I say, these are just ideas.
What =I'm= after is some "how to go about pop transcription" docs. Cuz it looks like that's the ONLY way I'll get to play DECENT pop song renditions. I don't want to JUST play. I want to compose, too.


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Anyone can join, whether you are a transcriber or not. I don't think there will be too many freeloaders that will just disappear once they got what they want. New songs are being transcribed by people all the time. I transcribe a new song about every 3 days. I'm starting a new one today. Hmmm ... which one should I do?

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Well, count me in! To be upfront about this; I currently only have about three or four pieces I could contribute if you don't mind. This kind of site would certainly be interesting. Thanks.


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