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I've read this whole thread. Dissonant Turtle, you said that you engaged this teacher with the specific purpose of preparing for a university audition in March. What I imagine should happen next is that this teacher would first examine two things: what is required in the exam and what that involves - what your present abilities are so she knows what she is working with. It's not just a case of preparing pieces, but what you need to play them well, and which pieces would probably work best given your present strengths and weaknesses. The next thing would be that she comes up with a plan and a great portion of that plan would involve what she tells you to do to prepare at home for that audition, and then her hearing what you have prepared, give feedback, and tell you what you need to do next in your continued preparation. Did anything like that happen?

The part where you record a bunch of pieces, send her the files, and ask her to choose among what you played doesn't fit. That seems like you are doing the planning, and want her to do the responding, or something like that. Dunno.

In regards to firing and such - If you hire a professional then that person has to do things according to his expertise. You give the goal such as "pass the audition", but how that is done is not up to you. It is not like an employee who is told to serve hamburgers 7 hours a day with a smile, and gets fired if he didn't smile enough. A professional who doesn't use her judgment and lead in her service to you also cannot do her job.

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders


LoL at my key! I will get around to it eventually...


Umm, you do KNOW which key it is, yes?


Uhhh yeah. Something about that minor relative thingy? Like go 3 half step up ... errr down from uhhh D I mean G flat?? laugh

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Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders


LoL at my key! I will get around to it eventually...


Umm, you do KNOW which key it is, yes?


Uhhh yeah. Something about that minor relative thingy? Like go 3 half step up ... errr down from uhhh D I mean G flat?? laugh


Yeah, isn't it like B something? ha

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Dustin- I sightread as part of my job too, I accompany a lot and play at church every Sunday, but my point was that you wouldn't sight read something like Beethoven op. 101 at a concert.

I never denied sightreading is useful, it's a great skill to have, I'm just saying you shoulnt expect your privte teacher to indulge in something you can very easily learn yourself.



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Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders


LoL at my key! I will get around to it eventually...


Umm, you do KNOW which key it is, yes?


Uhhh yeah. Something about that minor relative thingy? Like go 3 half step up ... errr down from uhhh D I mean G flat?? laugh


Which "ravelpiece" is that, by the way?



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders


LoL at my key! I will get around to it eventually...


Umm, you do KNOW which key it is, yes?


Uhhh yeah. Something about that minor relative thingy? Like go 3 half step up ... errr down from uhhh D I mean G flat?? laugh


Which "ravelpiece" is that, by the way?


Ahhhh Jeez I read through the scores one day and recorded them and was just quickly testing out the functions of my website application and didn't care much about the details at that point. But then It became tricky to rework the scripts and I haven't gotten around to it again.

But it's the second movement of the Sonatine

Last edited by Dustin Sanders; 02/21/11 10:16 AM.
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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Dustin- I sightread as part of my job too, I accompany a lot and play at church every Sunday, but my point was that you wouldn't sight read something like Beethoven op. 101 at a concert.

I never denied sightreading is useful, it's a great skill to have, I'm just saying you shoulnt expect your privte teacher to indulge in something you can very easily learn yourself.


again that is like saying you can 'very easily' learn phrasing yourself by just listening to recordings and going to concerts. Or you can 'very easily' learn technique yourself by reading some books and watching some videos of famous pianists. Or 'very easily' learn ear training by playing intervals and singing a lot. Nothing else I can say except I know differently.

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Changing the key is important.
I would make that a priority


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Originally Posted by motif


That was an interesting read.

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Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Dustin- I sightread as part of my job too, I accompany a lot and play at church every Sunday, but my point was that you wouldn't sight read something like Beethoven op. 101 at a concert.

I never denied sightreading is useful, it's a great skill to have, I'm just saying you shoulnt expect your privte teacher to indulge in something you can very easily learn yourself.


again that is like saying you can 'very easily' learn phrasing yourself by just listening to recordings and going to concerts. Or you can 'very easily' learn technique yourself by reading some books and watching some videos of famous pianists. Or 'very easily' learn ear training by playing intervals and singing a lot. Nothing else I can say except I know differently.


Yeah. You know sh*t.

Sight reading and performing (when it isn't sightread) - two different things. Sounds like you never had a great teacher, otherwise you'd see what I mean when I say I'd never bring sightreading to my teacher.

So tell me, with what specifics do you waste your students' time when it comes to sightreading? If you do that at every lesson. And I assume we're talking about high level (of students) here. Not the average piano player who (normally) plays scales, Hanon and a Chopin Waltz.

(And by the way, the Bach on your website is in E flat, not G flat, that's what stores meant.)

Last edited by Pogorelich.; 02/21/11 01:20 PM.


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Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by Pogorelich
And it's not the same at all. How can you even use that comparison? One has to do with the essence of making music. The other one has to do with how you use a word - and in the end it means the same thing.

No, they don't really mean the exact same thing. There's
a difference betweeen them in connotation. Just as there's a difference between one person describing someone as "zaftig" and another person describing that same person "fat." Apparently some people are more sensitive to word coloration and tone and pitch and nuance and rhythm than others. All these are qualitites which apply as much to verbal expression as to musical expression. Words are to speech what notes are to music. Writers are also composers and poetry is literally a sort of verbal music. For those of us with the sensitivity to differentiate, the use of "firing" and "hiring"in the OP's first post simply struck sour notes.


Wow. So there's sensitive, and there's sensitive.



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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by -Frycek
Originally Posted by Pogorelich
And it's not the same at all. How can you even use that comparison? One has to do with the essence of making music. The other one has to do with how you use a word - and in the end it means the same thing.

No, they don't really mean the exact same thing. There's
a difference betweeen them in connotation. Just as there's a difference between one person describing someone as "zaftig" and another person describing that same person "fat." Apparently some people are more sensitive to word coloration and tone and pitch and nuance and rhythm than others. All these are qualitites which apply as much to verbal expression as to musical expression. Words are to speech what notes are to music. Writers are also composers and poetry is literally a sort of verbal music. For those of us with the sensitivity to differentiate, the use of "firing" and "hiring"in the OP's first post simply struck sour notes.


Wow. So there's sensitive, and there's sensitive.


smile

But I totally agree with -Frycek here. Angelina, earlier you wrote that a comparison I used was unfair, because "One has to do with the essence of making music. The other one has to do with how you use a word - and in the end it means the same thing." But to me, words-- subtleties of their meanings, their associations, even their sounds-- is never a straightforward thing; it's always wondrous and multi-layered. This is why I spend a lot of time reading Joyce and Beckett (see my signature).

But I don't think -Frycek (or myself) is more sensitive than you. We're all sensitized to different things.

-Jason


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Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Dustin- I sightread as part of my job too, I accompany a lot and play at church every Sunday, but my point was that you wouldn't sight read something like Beethoven op. 101 at a concert.

I never denied sightreading is useful, it's a great skill to have, I'm just saying you shoulnt expect your privte teacher to indulge in something you can very easily learn yourself.


again that is like saying you can 'very easily' learn phrasing yourself by just listening to recordings and going to concerts. Or you can 'very easily' learn technique yourself by reading some books and watching some videos of famous pianists. Or 'very easily' learn ear training by playing intervals and singing a lot. Nothing else I can say except I know differently.


I would think that anyone who is taking lessons is already "learn[ing] phrasing," "learn[ing] technique," and learning other aspects of piano playing and technique with every piece they study and that those elements shouldn't have to be re-introduced as part of learning of sight-reading.

Regards,


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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Dustin- I sightread as part of my job too, I accompany a lot and play at church every Sunday, but my point was that you wouldn't sight read something like Beethoven op. 101 at a concert.

I never denied sightreading is useful, it's a great skill to have, I'm just saying you shoulnt expect your privte teacher to indulge in something you can very easily learn yourself.


again that is like saying you can 'very easily' learn phrasing yourself by just listening to recordings and going to concerts. Or you can 'very easily' learn technique yourself by reading some books and watching some videos of famous pianists. Or 'very easily' learn ear training by playing intervals and singing a lot. Nothing else I can say except I know differently.


Yeah. You know sh*t.

Sight reading and performing (when it isn't sightread) - two different things. Sounds like you never had a great teacher, otherwise you'd see what I mean when I say I'd never bring sightreading to my teacher.

So tell me, with what specifics do you waste your students' time when it comes to sightreading? If you do that at every lesson. And I assume we're talking about high level (of students) here. Not the average piano player who (normally) plays scales, Hanon and a Chopin Waltz.

(And by the way, the Bach on your website is in E flat, not G flat, that's what stores meant.)


Ahhhh flame wars. I'll let it go because apparently you don't believe me.

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Originally Posted by beet31425

smile

But I totally agree with -Frycek here. Angelina, earlier you wrote that a comparison I used was unfair, because "One has to do with the essence of making music. The other one has to do with how you use a word - and in the end it means the same thing." But to me, words-- subtleties of their meanings, their associations, even their sounds-- is never a straightforward thing; it's always wondrous and multi-layered. This is why I spend a lot of time reading Joyce and Beckett (see my signature).

But I don't think -Frycek (or myself) is more sensitive than you. We're all sensitized to different things.

-Jason



But ultimately, it means the same thing. As a teacher, you get paid by the student. Whether you call it "fired" or not when a student doesn't want the teacher anymore, is irrelevant because it doens't change the event. You can call it all the fancy words you want; it still means the same thing.

Yeah I love literature too - in fact I'm currently taking a break from writing an essay about Poe's "Philosophy of Composition" as it is connected to a bunch of other readings. And it's still beyond me how some authors use words and at times the amout of unnecessary @&#%$ present in each reading. This is why I hate it when sometimes things are called by a THOUSAND different names when they mean the same thing.

Maybe it's my foreign nature. But it annoys the heck out of me.



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DS - you just don't want to indulge because you're afraid of being wrong. Come on, what's wrong with a little debate? We could both learn something.

(and ignore the swearing, I do that a lot, not necessarily to offend)



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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
Dustin- I sightread as part of my job too, I accompany a lot and play at church every Sunday, but my point was that you wouldn't sight read something like Beethoven op. 101 at a concert.

I never denied sightreading is useful, it's a great skill to have, I'm just saying you shoulnt expect your privte teacher to indulge in something you can very easily learn yourself.


again that is like saying you can 'very easily' learn phrasing yourself by just listening to recordings and going to concerts. Or you can 'very easily' learn technique yourself by reading some books and watching some videos of famous pianists. Or 'very easily' learn ear training by playing intervals and singing a lot. Nothing else I can say except I know differently.


I would think that anyone who is taking lessons is already "learn[ing] phrasing," "learn[ing] technique," and learning other aspects of piano playing and technique with every piece they study and that those elements shouldn't have to be re-introduced as part of learning of sight-reading.

Regards,


Yes you are absolutely correct , sir. But sight reading is a completely different skill. There are some ways to develop it the most efficiently as in being to immediately decipher intervals without reading the notes exactly , paying strict attention to the rhythm even if you are playing all wrong notes and never never never look at your hands!!! It is also very important to be able to read a few measures ahead , and when you flip a page , be able to flip it a few measures before so you have a few seconds to check out the new page. Also , being to correctly keep track of all key signatures and time signatures on the fly is very important as well. You should practice playing through difficult pieces at correct tempo and playing wrong chords and notes on purpose ... Like I said it may not make sense to some of you here but correct notes are the LAST thing you should worry about when you are developing your sight reading skills. Every time you look at your hands you are practicing sight reading incorrectly and every time you stop EVER because you don't think you're playing it correctly is also incorrect.

There is so much more to sight reading than that it takes a lot of time to understand the concepts and become efficient at it. Phrasing and articulation is also completely different when you are sight reading a piece that is fairly difficult for you.

It makes me cringe when Pogorelich begins to flame me and my previous teacher because she has absolutely no clue what she's talking about.

'Reading through pieces' might unnaturally force your brain to think faster , but it won't be efficient and it will also cause a lot of tension.

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Originally Posted by Pogorelich.
DS - you just don't want to indulge because you're afraid of being wrong. Come on, what's wrong with a little debate? We could both learn something.

(and ignore the swearing, I do that a lot, not necessarily to offend)


A debate ceases to be a debate when you start ad hominem attacks. My little key mistake has nothing to do with whether or not what I am saying has any validity. As well , to insult my previous teacher without knowing who it is also is below the belt. I have explained everything I can as best as I can and if you think I am wasting time teaching sight reading , that is your opinion. My instructor spent a few minutes each lesson developing my sight reading skills and for his other pupils and the rest of the faculty's pupils are absolutely horrific sight readers. It's of course personal testimony and you don't have to believe it. But his pupils learn music faster , can read quicker and are the ones in the university who are accompanying for everyone because they can just sight read the stuff. I am very lucky to have had his guidance and he is a fantastic pianist and accompanist.

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Originally Posted by Dustin Sanders
It makes me cringe when Pogorelich begins to flame me and my previous teacher because she has absolutely no clue what she's talking about.


Regarding your teacher? Sure I might not, but I'm only basing this on what you've said. Otherwise I'm pretty certain I know more than you think...

Quote
'Reading through pieces' might unnaturally force your brain to think faster , but it won't be efficient and it will also cause a lot of tension.


Not true, unless you don't know what you're doing, in which case some initial guidence would be of course good.

Re: your other post, the people I know as best sight readers have never indulged their private teachers with it, especially at a post secondary level. Experience teaches best. Of course pointers are good - I never denied that - but to take up a whole portion of the lesson CAN be a waste, in my opinion.

I guess we can agree to disagree.



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