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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW_Dv_GNQAo

Thoughts?

Do you guys play the moonlight slowly as is normally recognized or same tempo that schiff proposes?

P.S. my first post!!


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welcome pault418.

This is a timely lecture for me as I have a student learning this piece. (I play it slower, altho I haven't finished the lecture).

I heard Schiff play the Goldberg Variations. That was an awesome concert.


accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Originally Posted by Pault418
Do you guys play the moonlight slowly as is normally recognized or same tempo that schiff proposes?

I play it more quickly than is customary, though not quite as fast as Schiff. I think he's absolutely correct about the tempo. The first movement is Adagio, but the cut time signature means that the pulse is assigned to the half notes, not the quarter notes.

By the way, congratulations on your first post!

Chris

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I absolutely agree with Schiff on this. I also play the triplets as 'support' and try to let the melody really come out. You hear alot of people play it very very slow, with the triplets stating the melody. It makes much more sense to think of the triplets as support imo, Beethoven was a master at this (think Pathetique mvt.2, Op90 mvt.2 etc.)


Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
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Have played this piece both ways...it is one I like to keep fresh on the mind in case I end up in front of a piano with someone asking..."play something."

It really depends on the day I have had, if I play it slower I have had a poor day.



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Very helpful lecture! I'm learning this piece right now but I play it andante.

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Originally Posted by librrra
Very helpful lecture! I'm learning this piece right now but I play it andante.


Hmmm, apparently you're dyslexic, yes?



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Well, a person could play it andante in 4, as opposed to adagio in 2. Wouldn't be the best, wouldn't be right, but not impossible.


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I thought it odd that Schiff said the first movement had no traditional structure-- he specifically said it wasn't in sonata form. It's at least kind of in sonata form, isn't it? With a big G# pedal point to close the development section, just like in the last movement?

-Jason


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No, the Adagio has no clear exposition, development and recapitulation sections. The Presto is the only movement in sonata-allegro form.

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Originally Posted by jeffreyjones
No, the Adagio has no clear exposition, development and recapitulation sections. The Presto is the only movement in sonata-allegro form.

I don't think you can just categorically say "no". Certainly the boundaries between sections are dreamlike, hazy and open for debate, but I hear them (development starting at m.23; recap at m.42). Charles Rosen and Paul Bekker (and others) have referred to the sonata-form structure of the movement. You might ultimately find their arguments unconvincing, but you can't just say "no" like it's obvious and not worthy of discussion.

-J


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Maybe we are not allowed to say no, but I still agree with Andras Schiff (and Jeffrey Jones). No clear exposition, development and recapitulation. Just a continuous flowing and changing melody. Very different to other first movements of Beethoven.


Currently working on: Perfecting the Op 2/1, studying the 27/2 last movement. Chopin Nocturne 32/2 and Posth. C#m, 'Raindrop' prelude and Etude 10/9
Repetoire: Beethoven op 2/1, 10/1(1st, 2nd), 13, 14/1, 27/1(1st, 2nd), 27/2, 28(1st, 2nd), 31/2(1st, 3rd), 49/1, 49/2, 78(1st), 79, 90, 101(1st)
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Originally Posted by beet31425

I don't think you can just categorically say "no".



Yes, he can and he's absolutely, positively corrrect.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by beet31425

I don't think you can just categorically say "no".

Yes, he can and he's absolutely, positively corrrect.

Y'all are free to make your pronouncements from up high (and without explanation or real discussion). And I might have the minority opinion.

But the material from m.1-22 is clearly recapitulated at m.42-59. And the section in between these two blocks is somewhat development-like: it starts with a statement of the main theme in the subdominant (just as in the Waldstein's development section) and ends with a long dominant pedal point.

I'm not saying this is textbook sonata form. But there's more to it structurally than "just a continuous flowing and changing melody." I think it's useful to make a distinction between a movement like this, which has some sonata form elements, and a movement like the first of op.27/1, which does not.


-J


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Op.27 #2, first movement: sonata form or not sonata form ?!?

Let's see what Sir Donald Francis Tovey (Mr. Beethoven) has to say:
"Continuous melody on an enormous scale with elements of development and recapitulation."

Is the question now settled?


Jose
Kawai K5 - Kawai CA61

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