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Originally Posted by apple*
Originally Posted by stores
You do it because the excitement of discovering something new with the turn of every page (even after playing for over 40 years) still drives you because you realise that this learning thing will NEVER EVER end!


it's wonderful isn't it?

-apple, definitely an amateur


smile
apple, I love your posts.. Gracious, brief and to the point.
I am most definitely an amateur, and I can pick the best of them in any crowd.

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Amateurs either weren't successful at trying to be professionals or didn't want to be professionals. The average professional will be better than the average amateur, but of course there exists amateurs who are better than an average professional. A top level amateur is probably not as good as a top level professional. I would think of them as being overlapping distribution curves, with amateurs being more skewed towards the unskilled side and professionals skewed largely towards the skilled side.

Originally Posted by mps989
...My question is: can amateurs be anywhere close to pros? If not, what's the missing ingredient?...

The missing ingredient is enough time, energy and motivation to devote wholly to the instrument.

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Originally Posted by PlebiousPianist
Practice/practise follows the same rule as advice/advise in British English. "It is important to develop good practice habits when you practise."

End of OT grammar lesson. wink


That's the way I learned it, too. But in the US, not Britain.


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Originally Posted by stores
Old Ed has been an annoyance long before now, but he's not a bad guy...


He has tried at least twice that I know of to intimate that kbk had an anti-Semitic intent for posting "Arbeit macht frei" in response to a Goethe quote (which was directly related in meaning to that phrase). These were both at times when kbk wasn't allowed to post responses. So I have to wonder a little about "Old Ed" and his position in the good/bad guy spectrum - attacking someone who can't respond, over something that is not even necessarily meant in the way he is taking it. Not to mention that right before the first instance, IIRC, the two of them had been tangling over unrelated stuff, which makes the motivation of smearing the defenseless kbk regarding the "Arbeit" post just a tad more questionable than it already was. Particularly since, ironically, "Old Ed" had to google the phrase before he could even get insulted by it, which says something about its actual importance to him.

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by mps989
the answers made me feel a lot better and feel like there's a point in practicing after all.


Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice. You do it because the passion inside of you won't allow you NOT TO. Now you won't always FEEL like practising, but that's not the point. You do it because the excitement of discovering something new with the turn of every page (even after playing for over 40 years) still drives you because you realise that this learning thing will NEVER EVER end!


Yea, I had a bad day yesterday (the piano wouldn't do what i wanted it to do...), but now I started a new Chopin Waltz and couldn't agree more with you ^^

Last edited by mps989; 11/28/10 04:09 AM.
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Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin

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Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin


You're a little more than odd...just sayin'. But it's not that "I wish"...if money, ego, or fame were my motivation I'd probably have either quit or done myself in many moons ago.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin


But I think there may be a slight difference between people making deeper, complex, very emotion evoking art and being an entertainer controlled by the industry...

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Originally Posted by Orange Soda King
Originally Posted by motif
Originally Posted by mps989

Or COURSE there's a point! You don't do it for money, fame, or whatever. You do it because you LOVE it so much you have no other choice.


right, like e.g. Lady Gaga we do it because we love it and money, ego or fame doesn't matter...you wish...smokin


But I think there may be a slight difference between people making deeper, complex, very emotion evoking art and being an entertainer controlled by the industry...


I don't know, listen to Alejandro very nice melody that actually it could be theme to a piano concerto.
How do you define deeper or complex art?

[video:youtube]crYDOdZ2LC4[/video]

BTW I heard many nasty stories about hate, envy and unhealthy competition in classical, concert pianist world...so where is the love of what they're doing...


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It's the same thing that separates pro athletes from amateurs. Either you have it or you don't. While there may be some amateurs that can play as well as some professionals, a lot of luck also has to be factored in... like being born to parents who will help to nurture your abilities... having access to good teachers... knowing the right people to advance your career.. etc

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Originally Posted by Lingyis
what i'm more interested in... is whether, for a given piece, an amateur can play better than professionals.

perhaps even world-class professionals.

right now i tend to think it's possible, at least for less ambitious pieces. like, i imagine, many amateurs play "fur elise" better than professionals... i think many chopin waltzes and perhaps nocturnes are within reach for good amateurs.

gilbert kaplan, economist by trade, became the foremost authority on Mahler's 2nd symphony. the thing is, he's a one-trick pony--said symphony is the only piece he has ever conducted (at least up till a few years ago). so, at least when it comes to interpreting, "amateurs" can do better than professionals. but when there are such technical requirements at the piano, i wonder.


Why would you think that? all the skills that professionals work to develop apply just as much to "simple" pieces like "Fur Elise"-- phrasing, control over dynamics and rubato, tone coloration, interpretation. A great pianist can make a piece like Fur Elise sound as if you're hearing it for the first time, in ways you never may have thought about it. Listen to what Horowitz does for "Traumerei" compared to your average amateur.... there is no comparison.

Sophia

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Originally Posted by wr
...the two of them had been tangling over unrelated stuff, which makes the motivation of smearing the defenseless kbk regarding the "Arbeit" post just a tad more questionable than it already was. Particularly since, ironically, "Old Ed" had to google the phrase before he could even get insulted by it, which says something about its actual importance to him.

Defenseless? Now that's really funny. FYI, he had ample opportunity to defend and/or explain himself but chose to remain silent - somewhat like what a martyr might do.

Of course I had to Google the phrase as I don't speak German. But after translating - discovered the meaning. You'd have to be really obtuse not to get the 'gist' of what he wrote. But maybe I am wrong. I don't know what he 'really' meant since he never explained himself. The door's still open for that.


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Originally Posted by eweiss
Originally Posted by wr
...the two of them had been tangling over unrelated stuff, which makes the motivation of smearing the defenseless kbk regarding the "Arbeit" post just a tad more questionable than it already was. Particularly since, ironically, "Old Ed" had to google the phrase before he could even get insulted by it, which says something about its actual importance to him.

Defenseless? Now that's really funny. FYI, he had ample opportunity to defend and/or explain himself but chose to remain silent - somewhat like what a martyr might do.

Of course I had to Google the phrase as I don't speak German. But after translating - discovered the meaning. You'd have to be really obtuse not to get the 'gist' of what he wrote. But maybe I am wrong. I don't know what he 'really' meant since he never explained himself. The door's still open for that.
Alright, I think I'm owed a chance to defend myself here. I got an email from a poster saying I was banned, it mentioned Ed, I emailed back - these are my actual words - "Ed's OK, he's got his own thing." Now is this something an Ed hating anti-semite would write? It's only later I discovered Ed had made all the fuss in the first place - obviously my opinion of him has changed! Of course Ed knows all this cause I emailed him during my banishment.

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Never got an email from you klutz. Not saying you never sent one. I never recieved it. And it still doesn't explain why you wrote what you did in German.

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Go back to the thread. Plenty worked that out. As for why I didn't respond - while you were posting your complaints it was 3am here. I was banned before I was even out of bed! (not the first time either)

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Jesu Christi! You two are STILL yapping about that crap? Ed, Klutz...LET IT GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

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Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!

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Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!


Cmon man, you ARE obnoxious! That's not to say you don't have the right to BE obnoxious. =p



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!


Cmon man, you ARE obnoxious! That's not to say you don't have the right to BE obnoxious. =p
Cmon I don't think you have the right to call him that which I believe you did.


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Inb4lock.

Originally Posted by chopin_r_us
Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by keyboardklutz
Once you've been described as 'obnoxious' by a poster you kinda feel the need to clear your name. Anyway, it's gone!


Cmon man, you ARE obnoxious! That's not to say you don't have the right to BE obnoxious. =p
Cmon I don't think you have the right to call him that which I believe you did.


Well, if he does, that really means something, haha!!

Jk stores wink

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