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Estonia Pianos
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Follow this link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150153321280

anyone familiar with this dealer? They're not too far from me, and a 1978 C7 for under $10,000 seems like a pretty good deal. They specifically stated this one only has 2 pedals - not sure how "significant" that may be (or not be). Also stated that cabinet has been "sprayed". I would think would be at least worth checking on if price reduction is due mainly to the scratch on the lid (seems questionable, though, that that is the only reason for the low price).

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Fair disclosure : You asked for "opinions"; this is just an opinion and not a professional one, at that.

Whatever has been done to it, this piano is "pushing 30" - not old for a quality piano, but from what others have said, a C7 of that vintage is certainly not the equivalent of a modern C7. One presumes that the work done is recent work which indicates that this piano was built for the Asian market. I would ask why it was refurbished in Japana and recently shipped from Japan to the US? The brief description of work done :

The hammers have been filed and voiced and the action has been regulated. This piano was not only refurbished in Japan but also inspected by a Yamaha trained piano technician upon arrival at the storage units, thus allowing us to deliver a piano with complete confidence of its excellent condition.

is not much more than what a good dealership might do in the initial prepping of a good piano with potential. I don't see that the filing and voicing of the hammers and the regulation of the action as indicating that the piano has been brought up to performance standards, and it is certainly no proof of its "excellent condition".

Only a qualified tech, examining the piano, could say whether the piano is "worth" the price.

Regards,


BruceD
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It's "grey market".


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grey market does not concern me - I currently have a grey market UX1 Yamaha, and it's been the best piano I've ever owned.

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I'm not expecting that anyone might have a explanation for this, but I'm still curious why someone would minimally "refurbish" a 30-year old grand in Japan for shipment to the US. Would one assume that this piano would not be a lone example, but perhaps one of a number of grey pianos in a single shipment to the US? Is there no market for this piano in Japan, and would shipping it to the US be a profitable move?

Regards,


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All I can say is if something seems too good to be true...

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Quote
Originally posted by BruceD:
I'm not expecting that anyone might have a explanation for this, but I'm still curious why someone would minimally "refurbish" a 30-year old grand in Japan for shipment to the US. Would one assume that this piano would not be a lone example, but perhaps one of a number of grey pianos in a single shipment to the US? Is there no market for this piano in Japan, and would shipping it to the US be a profitable move?

Regards,
As a rule, the Japanese don't buy used items. It is a cultural thing.

So, used pianos in Japan have a very limited market. Since piano is/was required study in elementary school in Japan there are a LOT of players and a lot of used pianos.

Most are "refirbished" and shipped to markets outside Japan. The US market absorbs thousands each year.


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Steve Cohen :

Thank you for that explanation. Much appreciated!

Regards,


BruceD
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just have this inspected before considering any further.


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The "refurbished" thing kills me. By their own admission the work that was done was only cosmetic.
How many homes in Japan can accomodate a 7'4" from what you know of the culture?
More likely came from institutional use and is beat to s--t. Too old! Too gray!


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I think the current market price for a good, playable C7 is close to the $15K-$20K range. This one selling for $8K may need significant restoration work. Having a piano tech inspect it will reveal the extent of work needed.

A cross-country piano move also will cost you about $1,250. Make sure you factor this, as well as any needed repairs, into the overall purchase price.

That said, the C7 I play at lessons is an old model, >30 years old. It has ivory keys, which means it predates the 1974 ivory ban. It is one of the best pianos I've played. In fact, the only piano I've played that I liked better was a late 1980s-era 6'10" Grotrian, which is in a completely different league price-wise.


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These were the responses to my questions about this piano on ebay:

first e-mail:

All my pianos have the same work done to them. They are refurbished,
meaning
all original parts, not rebuilt, meaning new parts. With normal home
use and
proper care, a piano of this age shouldn't need to have its parts
changed.
Starting from the outside, the case has been re-sprayed, brass polished
and
the plastic key tops replaced (okay, all pianos have one new thing).
So,
cosmetically it looks new. Internally every thing is cleaned as well. I

check the torque on the tuning pins to make sure they are tight and the

piano can hold tune. The dampers are inspected and working properly.
Tonal
regulation has been done. This is needed because with age and use the
densely packed felt hammers become even harder. The harder the hammer,
the
brighter the tone it produces. The technicians file the impression of
the
strings off the heads of the hammers and use another tool to soften
them.
This is also called filing and voicing. There are a lot of parts which
move
when you press a key, these parts are called the action. With age and
use
the response becomes uneven. To even out the touch, the technicians
regulate
the action

2nd e-mail:

Hello again,
I think I missed part of this email so I will answer it again. I sent
you
another two pedaled Yamaha auction.
Q)The only reason this piano is priced so low is because of the lid
>having a scratch?
A) Yes. Actually there are four marks. Three on top and one on the
bottom.
All are on the same section of the lid.

Q)What about pinblock/strings? Have these
>been replaced?
A) This is a refurbished piano so every thing on it came from the
Yamaha
factory. My technician in the US double checks the suppliers work,
which
includes checking the torque on the tuning pins. The base strings are
not
tubby or weak.

Q)What is the condition of the soundboard?
A)Proper crown and down baring. Ribs and bridges tight and working
properly.

Q)What do you sell most C7 pianos for, and why only 2 pedals?
A) Here is the item number for the original listing. I have sold C7's
to
recording studion and musicians.


Q)I have never seen a "C7" model with only 2 pedals. How does this
>compare, in sound, to other C7 models that have 3 pedals?
A) it is the same and could have been converted as the action frame is
identical.

ANY COMMENTS?

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These were the responses to my questions about this piano on ebay:

first e-mail:

All my pianos have the same work done to them. They are refurbished,
meaning
all original parts, not rebuilt, meaning new parts. With normal home
use and
proper care, a piano of this age shouldn't need to have its parts
changed.
Starting from the outside, the case has been re-sprayed, brass polished
and
the plastic key tops replaced (okay, all pianos have one new thing).
So,
cosmetically it looks new. Internally every thing is cleaned as well. I

check the torque on the tuning pins to make sure they are tight and the

piano can hold tune. The dampers are inspected and working properly.
Tonal
regulation has been done. This is needed because with age and use the
densely packed felt hammers become even harder. The harder the hammer,
the
brighter the tone it produces. The technicians file the impression of
the
strings off the heads of the hammers and use another tool to soften
them.
This is also called filing and voicing. There are a lot of parts which
move
when you press a key, these parts are called the action. With age and
use
the response becomes uneven. To even out the touch, the technicians
regulate
the action

2nd e-mail:

Hello again,
I think I missed part of this email so I will answer it again. I sent
you
another two pedaled Yamaha auction.
Q)The only reason this piano is priced so low is because of the lid
>having a scratch?
A) Yes. Actually there are four marks. Three on top and one on the
bottom.
All are on the same section of the lid.

Q)What about pinblock/strings? Have these
>been replaced?
A) This is a refurbished piano so every thing on it came from the
Yamaha
factory. My technician in the US double checks the suppliers work,
which
includes checking the torque on the tuning pins. The base strings are
not
tubby or weak.

Q)What is the condition of the soundboard?
A)Proper crown and down baring. Ribs and bridges tight and working
properly.

Q)What do you sell most C7 pianos for, and why only 2 pedals?
A) Here is the item number for the original listing. I have sold C7's
to
recording studion and musicians.


Q)I have never seen a "C7" model with only 2 pedals. How does this
>compare, in sound, to other C7 models that have 3 pedals?
A) it is the same and could have been converted as the action frame is
identical.

ANY COMMENTS?

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Here are some major reasons that Japanese would not buy 30-year old used Yam C7. 1)C7 is produced mainly for non-musical elementary, junior-high or high schools and played by some teachers who can play piano a little. 2)Average Japanese houses are not large enough to accomodate lager pianos, but some wealthyer people's houses are large and can accomodate even full size grands, but they prefer better performance pianos(e.g., S&S) than C7. For them, C7 is cheap. List price of a new C7 in Japan is usd27,500. 3)Average Japanese people knows that C7s retired from non-musical schools needs a lot of tech works and buying a new C3 or C5 is cheaper and would provide better performance than 30-years old C7.
As I know of, there is no private C7 owners in Japan.

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Neal1974,
Do not believe anything said or writen to you by the seller. The only thing you can trust is what your technician finds when he survays the instrument. Without an independent survay you are taking a big chance no matter how good the price looks.


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Dear Neal,
I know this seller, having visited his home and warehouse several times, and bought a Yamaha upright for a friend there. He and his wife sell grey-market Yamahas and refurbished Steinways and M&H grands. They are very nice and well-meaning people and will be happy to have your tech inspect the piano. See what a tech says, but if you are interested by all means pursue this one - these are responsible sellers with an excellent e-bay rating and I have had good experiences with them.


Michael
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Gentlemen,
I have received a PM from a member of this thread. He wrote me that C7 is popular in US. I did not mention at all that C7 is not popular in Japan in my last post at least by words, but am getting afraid that it could give you some illusions such as that C7 is not popular in Japan or 30-year old C7 is worthless.
I guess 50% of non-musical public elementary and highscheels has C7s in their school gym. So, there are a lot of pepole who have seen and listen to the sound of C7s in Japan.
Nonnegligible number of rental practice studios in Japan have C7s. Houses in Japan are very samll and not all piano enthusiasts do not have grands. Also, soundproofing of apartment houses in Japan is too poor to play acoustic instruments. The rental practice stduios are for these people.
C7 is very popular among those who do not have their own pinaos in Japan.

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That crack is a concern. Normally a strong point of these grey market Yammies is their finish. There was a recent thread re cracks. Two possible causes are sudden changes of temperature and the piano having been dropped.

A pre-purchase inspection by an experienced tech who has no affiliation with the seller is the best used piano money that you can spend.

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Neal1974
I think the piano, from looking at the pics is a great deal. I would put new prehung Yamaha hammer,shanks and flanges. 30 year old wippens are probably fine. Top end /strings and soundboard look OK for the present. In that the top end is original you could easily restring the piano with #2 pins in that the japanese use .69 pins originally. The pinblock should be ok unless damaged. Personally I would buy it sight unseen in that I would and could make this piano look and play like new for minimal $ invested. No refinishing to deal with except the polyester repair.
Just refinish the soundboard and maybe the harp.
This is a fixer but after some investment it would look and play near new. Even a preowned C7 15-20 years old in good original shape would cost you 20K+ and it would still be used. 15K or less total investment and you have a near new C7
I actually have bought unrestored Steinways from this seller
I vouch for their credibility 100% Nice people


www.pastperfectpiano.com
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100+Steinway and M&H grands
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Thanks everyone for your replies. I am leaning towards BHA right now. With my trade-in, they're offering a C7 (1990 model) for a total of $15,900, delivery and all. I have a Yamaha UX1 upright to trade in. I think $15,900 is really good for a 1990 model. What do you think? Here's the link: http://www.pianocenter.com/used-detail.asp?offset=4&CATID=15480

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